Burst Cycling... PUDZIAN lets discuss!

[sfearl1]

whats your plan? you still doing this? i'm planning out my cycle now and i'd like to discuss.

[ENIGMA]

When you say burst cycle, I assume your talking about short (4 week max) cycles of a fast acting chemical such as test prop, correct?

[Gixxer82]

Originally Posted by ENIGMA

When you say burst cycle, I assume your talking about short (4 week max) cycles of a fast acting chemical such as test prop, correct?

This is exactly what hes talking about

4 weeks on 2 weeks pct 4 weeks on

I think its not that great of an idea, and I've told him 20 times already lol

[Right Hook]

I dont believe they are necessarily talking about short esters either.

[sfearl1]

Originally Posted by ENIGMA

When you say burst cycle, I assume your talking about short (4 week max) cycles of a fast acting chemical such as test prop, correct?

yes thats exactly what i'm referring to. compounds in particular include test prop, tren ace, and npp. theres not much out there regarding this method of cycling, and i'm willing to experiment for the bodybuilding community.

[pudzian2]

I think that people should do whatever works for them. BUT I have been theorizing for a while on the best way to use AAS for ME. and I think that some of the theories involved can/will apply to anyone. There is a thread I started on Am.com called "burst cycliing"

Here is a little bit about it (sfearl put a link if you can):

I THINK that the (replacement) technique is causing people to use way too many AAS for wayyy too long. I also think that health is #1 priority (for me at least). I use AAS to supplement my natural endocrine system rather than a period of hormone replacement. I feel that long cycles become less productive due to the body adapting like it would with anything else. We are always trying to maintain homeostasis. When the body has 'accepted' the exogenous hormonal influence, it adjusts its endogenous balance (which includes increased estrogen, dht conversion sometimes, progestin imbalances, prolactin imbalances, supression of natural testosterone, and an increase in cortisol production). If AAS have caused the bodies protein turnover rate to favor anabolism...then this will only last until the body creates a way to decrease that rate (cortisol, etc). If it didnt, AAS would let us get as big as our muscle fibers could get all at once and in a linear fashion. .Ever notice why gains usually come fast and then slow into a plateau? probably because your body has created a new equilibrium...at this point you are gaining little to nothing from the gear, and your inside is all messed up. As the internal hormones get all messed up.....things like BP HDL/LDL shifts, liver stress, and high estro/cortisol leave you for quite the shock when the AAS are dropped. Now if one plans on staying on indefinitely... then obviously the cruise periods are supposed to lessen these negative effects by lowering exogenous influence to just a little higher than the bodies natural production and running a SERM or whatever to help reduce cortisol, and estro and try and balance things. Thats why HRT patients arent given a lot of test. Because in order to remain healthy, doctors need to use AI's and careful monitoring to ensure a balance.... over LONG periods of time, exogenous hormone use can lead to the LONG term side effects associated with steroids. (liver, kidney, sterility, bad cholesterol, etc).

What I do is cycle with strong compounds for 21-28 days (about how long my body takes to significantly react to exogenous influence of hormones). I then have gotten all Im going to get out of the AAs, and jump into a small low toxicity, low dose PCT for 1-2 weeks, rest for 2-3 weeks and start over. Every two consecutive bursts, I take an additional 2-4 weeks off.....

its my "get in, get it done, get out" approach. This way when I do come off, I dont have huge cortisol estrogen rebounds and my endogenous hormone balance, sperm production, lipid profiles (all leading to the LONG term serious side effects) are essentially avoided. I may experience short term sides like BP, acne, insomnia etc... but thats not the main concern

Now I am not discrediting anyone else's approach...just simply shedding light on my ideas.

[Right Hook]

Alright first two comments:

1. Part of the purpose of a long cycle is letting the body adapt to the exogenous hormones. Meaning yeah you probably wont gain as fast as the first few weeks however when you come off your less likely to lose those gains b/c your body has adapted to hold, use, and maintain the new muscle mass. What is the burst cycling rebuttal to that?

2. Your interested in burst cycling in order to limit health risks. What really are your primary concerns? And has extended AAS use really been proven to show any negative health effects? You listed Liver, which as we know is one of the best organs at repairing itself. Next you have kidney...honestly I am not familiar with the long term effects on this organ without researching it more. Third you listed sterility. I recently posted 4-5 studies I found in 10 minutes on another board that most likely prove you can stimulate spermatogenesis even in the most shutdown individuals. Bad cholesterol...yeah I could see that, but with proper bloodwork and time off you should be able to avoid those issues.

Thoughts everyone?

[Gixxer82]

Originally Posted by Travis

Alright first two comments:

1. Part of the purpose of a long cycle is letting the body adapt to the exogenous hormones. Meaning yeah you probably wont gain as fast as the first few weeks however when you come off your less likely to lose those gains b/c your body has adapted to hold, use, and maintain the new muscle mass. What is the burst cycling rebuttal to that?

2. Your interested in burst cycling in order to limit health risks. What really are your primary concerns? And has extended AAS use really been proven to show any negative health effects? You listed Liver, which as we know is one of the best organs at repairing itself. Next you have kidney...honestly I am not familiar with the long term effects on this organ without researching it more. Third you listed sterility. I recently posted 4-5 studies I found in 10 minutes on another board that most likely prove you can stimulate spermatogenesis even in the most shutdown individuals. Bad cholesterol...yeah I could see that, but with proper bloodwork and time off you should be able to avoid those issues.

Thoughts everyone?

Damn, awesome post.

[Right Hook]

Btw, somewhat relevant but here is an article that basically debunks a lot of the steroid side effects (dammit this post is going to be a horrible influence on our already wreckless gixxer). Also note it is written by Anthony Roberts who most of us would agree is not very credible, so take it for what its worth:

Side Effects of Steroids

Most of the time, when steroids are mentioned, they´re brought up as the reason a particular athlete can run so fast, hit so many home runs, or make so many tackles. They are also claimed to have extraordinarily harsh side effects and for causing severely unforgiving and permanent damage. Everybody´s seen movies like "The Program" where steroids ruin a young athlete´s life, or perhaps "The Aaron Henry Story" on HBO, where a young athlete suffers lifelong problems from his steroid abuse. Most recently, I saw the movie "Spiderman" where the villain, the Green Goblin, admits to having his superhuman strength and psychotic personality from using "performance enhancers"!

I´m here to assure you that those types of horror stories are few and far between, and after consulting with literally hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders, I´ve almost never heard of anything even remotely resembling the popular "horror stories" we see in the media almost daily. I´ve certainly never seen anyone become the Green Goblin from using them, either..

By reading this article, coaches, athletes, parents and teachers will know the truth about anabolic steroid side effects and will be able to make their own informed decisions as to how bad they are. But I suspect that after reading what I have to say, as well as what the scientific literature says, the question of how bad steroids are will be a different question entirely; the only question remaining will be "why didn´t anyone tell me this before?"

When I initially started research for this piece, I consulted not only real-life athletes who had vast experience with anabolic steroid use, but also scientific and medical journals. The picture that unfolded before me was very different than the one typically painted by the mass media, and certainly much different than the one I found on Anabolic Steroid Abuse - National Institute on Drug Abuse, DEA, and National Institute on Drug Abuse. In my research on the governmental sites, I found very little of use, to be perfectly honest. There were tons unfounded claims and talk of money being put into "studies." In reality, the government "studies" on anabolic steroids were not medical studies at all. They were surveys given to various age groups, on steroid use, in order to generate statistics. There was nothing of medical value or scientific merit on those sites, despite the endless parade of doctors that seemed to be against their use. Here´s an example of one of the more absurd claims made on one of those sites:

"..[steroids] they are dangerous drugs, and when used inappropriately, they can cause a host of severe, long-lasting, and often irreversible negative health consequences. These drugs can stunt the height of growing adolescents, masculinize women, and alter sex characteristics of men. Anabolic steroids can lead to premature heart attacks, strokes, liver tumors, kidney failure and serious psychiatric problems. In addition, because steroids are often injected, users risk contracting or transmitting HIV or hepatitis.."

This is the information found on a government website, in a piece written by a doctor. I´m surprised she didn´t mention turning into the Green Goblin in her list of possible health side effects. As you read what I have to say, I want you to keep this in the back of your head. I want you to remember this claim, made by a medical doctor, as you read the rest of this piece. All of the information here is exactly what has been reported to me by athletes, as well as what is found in credible scientific journals; then decide for yourself what the truth about steroid side effects is.
Anabolic Steroid Side Effects:
1. Inhibition of Natural Hormones

The inhibition of natural hormones is probably the most common and probable side effect experienced from the use of anabolic steroids. In almost all cases, adding a hormone into your body will send a message to your endocrine system to stop producing it. This is because your body wants to remain in a very balanced state -- called "homeostasis," if I remember my high school biology class correctly. To maintain homeostasis, the body wants to avoid having too much of any particular hormone. To achieve this, the body sends a message to the testicles to slow down, or even stop producing testosterone when there is too much circulating. Unfortunately, this happens when any kind of hormone is added into the body, so even if an athlete is not using testosterone, but is using other anabolic steroids, the body will still send this signal 99% of the time. Of course different steroids cause varying degrees of inhibition ranging from total shut down of endogenous (natural) testosterone production, to very mild inhibition, where some natural hormones are still being produced and circulating. In almost all cases, this inhibition is over once the steroids aren´t active in the body anymore. In the following charts, we can see a mirror image of the level of steroid in the body (Nandrolone), compared with the level of natural testosterone being produced. In other words, as the level of steroid rises (chart 2), the level of testosterone falls (chart 1), and vice versa:

Now, as that first chart shows, testosterone levels fell when Nandrolone (an anabolic steroid was administered, but interestingly, the following chart shows an almost identical mirror image, where the Nandrolone levels in the blood rise. What this indicates is that the amount of this particular steroid in the blood is directly and proportionately inhibiting natural testosterone production. Here´s the chart:

Most athletes who use anabolic steroids accept all of this as a necessary price to pay in order to experience the benefits from using steroids. In an effort to combat this, athletes have experimented throughout the years with various compounds to avoid or at least limit this problem. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, anti-estrogens, and Selective Estrogen Receptor Antagonists are all used during a cycle, or after (or both) with this goal in mind. The following is a table showing the various hormonal levels of former steroid users who haven´t used them for a year (*called "ex-abusers" by the nice people who funded the test) versus current users (*abusers):

What we see in this chart is not surprising to anyone who is actually familiar with steroids, and not with media-hype. In people studied who haven t used steroids for a year, ALL of their measured hormones (testosterone, estrogen) were within the NORMAL RANGE! Clearly, the effects that steroids have on your hormones are reversible and the horror stories we ve all read in the media about people who never regained normal hormonal function after one cycle  are greatly exaggerated. I think anyone who is familiar with "After School Specials" about steroids will be very surprised at learning this fact. As for "The Aaron Henry Story" on HBO, I can t imagine how he has suffered side effects well into his 40âs when the steroid users in this study were totally fine after one year, and in some cases used more than he did!

(*Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. 84 (2003) 369-375)