Test, Hairloss, and Finasteride

[DR_C]

Ok, several of you guys have asked so I copied this from a previous PM I sent on the topic.

Finasteride is a "wonder drug" for guys like me who have a predisposition to male pattern baldness (MPB).

Long story short, I started using finasteride in 1995 while I was a subject participating in FDA Phase III Clinical Trials for the drug as sponsored by Merck.

Back then, I already had some temporal recession (balding on the front of the forehead).

I started using finasteride in a 52 week trial and the results were dramatic. Not only did my hair stop receding but by the end of the 52 weeks, a significant amount of my recession had re-grown!

The FDA approved finasteride for treatment of MPB shortly after the the clinicals and Merck started selling finasteride as "Propecia."

Ok, here is where the story gets interesting. Finasteride is actually an old drug originally sold under the name Proscar and FDA approved for the treatment of prostate enlargement. The only difference between Propecia and Proscar is the milligram dose per tablet. Propecia comes in a 1.25 mg tablet. Proscar comes in a 5 mg tablet and is currently available as a generic (even cheaper $$) since the 17 year patent Merck once held has long since expired.

Now, I said earlier, that finasteride dose wonders for MPB. For MPB, it works by inhibiting the 5-alpha reductase enzyme at the scalp. It is very effective at inhibiting DHT from binding to follicles on the scalp. Some studies have placed it in the range of 75% - 85% effective at inhibiting DHT from binding to scalp follicles.

The 5-alpha reductaste enzyme is responsible for converting test to DHT. This is a win-win drug for users of test. You see, you can use substantial amounts of test in conjunction with finasteride and not have to worry about your hair falling out!

Ok, now I mentioned that there is a way to get your health insurance to cover the cost of finasteride. Here is what you do. Go to your general practitioner and tell him you have MPB in your family. Explain to him that you want him to script Proscar 5 mg instead of Propecia 1.25 mg b/c you health insurance will not cover Propecia. I've yet to find a health insurer that will cover Propecia but they ALL cover Proscar since it is approved for prostate enlargement. Then take your 5 mg Proscar and cut the tablets into 4 pieces. Bingo - you now have 1.25 mg finasteride and you got it for the price of a health insurance pharmacy co-pay! Take one of the four pieces each day.

Ok, there are also a couple of issue that have been mentioned about finasteride that need some clarification.

1. It will not decrease your test. In fact quite the opposite! I have a 2007 study published in the American Journal of Dermatology that clearly demonstrates that the test subjects using finasteride experienced an increase in test.
2. In about 2% of the users, finasteride has caused some decreases in sex drive. I have yet to see any indication of this in any of my clients, myself included.
3. Finastride does not cause gyno. I have no clue where this came from but again I have never seen a single clinical that has indicated a casual relationship here.
4. Finasteride will not limit your gains as it is a site specific DHT inhibitor. It inhibits DHT activity in the scale and prostrate not in muscle tissue.

OK, summary
1. If you are running test in your cycle ALWAYS use finastride. If you are running Deca, don’t use finastride. I can explain the last note in more detail if anyone would like.
2. If you have health insurance, get if from your general practitioner. It’ll be very cheap.

As a final note there is also a newer 5-alpha reductase inhibitor know as durtasteride. It is even more effective at blocking DHT at the scalp (about 96%) but it is much more expensive b/c it is not available as a generic. If anyone wants to know, I can talk more about it as well.

Regards,

[Gixxer82]

excellent post!

[Travis]

Proscar is the devil. Seriously I think your vastly underplaying the sides. I spend a lot of time on male anti-aging boards. What is the single most common drug I see in hormonally messed up men's past? PROSCAR

I'm not certain but I dont even think D_ is a fan of proscar. Btw are you really a doctor? Seriously asking, cause we know there are other "Docs" that are not really doctors.

Needless to say you have sparked more interest in me and I will have to do some more research.

[usf97j4x4]

Originally Posted by Travis

Proscar is the devil. Seriously I think your vastly underplaying the sides. I spend a lot of time on male anti-aging boards. What is the single most common drug I see in hormonally messed up men's past? PROSCAR

I'm not certain but I dont even think D_ is a fan of proscar. Btw are you really a doctor? Seriously asking, cause we know there are other "Docs" that are not really doctors.

Needless to say you have sparked more interest in me and I will have to do some more research.

Ive heard D recommend finas numerous times, he usually recommends a low dose, 1/4 tablet or so.

Dinoiii?

[DR_C]

Originally Posted by Travis

Proscar is the devil. Seriously I think your vastly underplaying the sides. I spend a lot of time on male anti-aging boards. What is the single most common drug I see in hormonally messed up men's past? PROSCAR

I'm not certain but I dont even think D_ is a fan of proscar. Btw are you really a doctor? Seriously asking, cause we know there are other "Docs" that are not really doctors.

Needless to say you have sparked more interest in me and I will have to do some more research.

If you want to do your own reserach, I suggest you start here:

"The Importance of Dual 5-alpha reductase inhibition in the treatment of male pattern hair loss: Results of a randomized placebo-controlled study of dutasteride versus finasteride," Olsen, Hordinsky, Whiting et al, American Academy of Dermatology, 2006.

The article references almost ever recent publication on the subject so you should have little trouble working your way backwards.

Yes I am a doctor - PhD and I am on both the teaching and research faculty of a major Research One institution. I have been for 8 years. I am tenured and a faculty fellow.

Self-reporting of side effects on anti-aging board is weak eveidence at best. I would not rely on those type of statements in the process of forming a conclusion. There exists a wealth of published studies that detail side effects and report the strength of the correlations.



Regards,

[DR_C]

A couple of additional points regarding finasteride.

First, the half-life of the drug is about 8 hours. So, some folks suggest that if you are running a heavy test cycle, you divide your finasteride dose into 8 hour segments to provide a better level of protection. From a strictly hypothetical point of view and for roll-playing purpose only, If I were using test in a significant amount, say 750 -1000 mg a week, that is what I'd do.

I'd take my 5 mg tablet and cut it into 4 1.25 mg pieces. I'd take on in the morning, one in the afternoon, and one around bedtime for a total of 3.75 mg daily.

Now, you can eliminate the short half-life issue of finasteride by taking dutasteride. It has a half-life that is several weeks! Again, it is far more costly than finasteride.

Another point, do not use finasteride or any 5-alpha reductase inhibitor with nandralone. Nandralones are very mild on the hairline. This is because unlike test which becomes nastier compound (DHT) when interacting with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme, nandralone actually becomes less androgenic when it reacts with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme.

Now, you use a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor and nandralone together and nanadralone is inhibited and cannot reduce to DHN (which has almost non-andorgenic). This is bad b/c unreduced nandralone can have a pronounced effect on MPB.

For most DHT-based AAS (Winstrol et al), 5-alpha reductase inhibitors really have no effect. Since DHT-based AAS are modifications of DHT, there is no interaction with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. The androgenic factor of DHT-based AAS remains consistant. For example, Winstrol exhibits about 1/3 the androgenic effect as test. Winstrol is not a strong androgen. Its androgenic effect is not altered by the 5-alapha reductase enzyme. Therefore use of a drug like finasteride would not change the impact that Winstol might present to the hairline. So, with DHT-based AAS, if you are worried about your hairlne, pick DHT-based AAS that have low androgenic ratings like Winstrol. Say away from high androgenic property DHT-based AAS.

Since so many folks use it, and I think it is a great choice in a test stack, here is a note regarding EQ. EQ actually interacts with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme to conver into a DHB a more androgenic compound than EQ. However, this conversion takes place in such tiny amounts in the body that it will not impact hair loss.

Lastly, remember, that even excessive amounts of high anabolic low androgen steroids can actually affect the hairline.

Ok, summary

1. Heavy test cycle 750 -1000 mg EW - split up your daily dose of finasteride into 8 hour segments
2. Nandrolone - don't use it concurrently with 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors
3. If you are worried about hairloss and want to use DHT-based AAS, pick low androgenic DHT-based AAS like Winstrol
4. EQ and 5-alpha reductase inhibitors are OK

Regards,

[swolloniron]

Hmm how about a PP or SD cycle? Any benefit? I have been out of the loop for some time, but I thought I heard PP (DMT) was 5aReduced....?

[ItalianGuns]

Dr. C........

So I have had the horse shoe pattern on the two forehead sides ever since I was 14. My dad was bald at 18, but i've made it passed the 22 mark. It's still there, just like it was when I was 18-19. I started with ph's at a young age, 18. I know ph's have not caused it. My hair is a little thin, but nothing too obvious, and I do not have a bald spot in the "rose" (top of head, middle). Would you say that when you started using finasteride, you had most of these traits? How old may I ask? I am looking for something (other than rogane) that can still catch the problem and Correct it.


Thanks in advance.

[DR_C]

Originally Posted by swolloniron

Hmm how about a PP or SD cycle? Any benefit? I have been out of the loop for some time, but I thought I heard PP (DMT) was 5aReduced....?

Good questions!

SD is Methyl Drostanolone and is a DHT-based steroid. From my reading, it is actually not very androgenic. Most asseys place it 40% as androgenic as Test. For comparison, Winstrol asseys place it at 33% as androgenic as Test. So, yes, since it is a DHT-based AAS, it is not reduced by the 5-alpha reductase enzyme and therefore its androgenic properties are unaffected.

As for Desoxymethyltestosterone (DMT), one study I have seen reports that DMT is about 60% as androgenic as test. It is not a DHT-based steroid (its a variation of test) so it would be reduced by the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. In this case, I do not have a specific estimate as to the effects of 5-alpha reduction on DMT. In most cases, test reduces to more androgenic compounds (see test--> DHT) in this case I can't give you specific Q numbers. However, if 5-alpha reduction is block by using finasteride while on a cycle of DMT and DMT is only 60% as androgenic as test to begin with, my educated guess would be that the inhibition would only further reduce the potential androgenic properties of DMT.

Regards,

[DR_C]

Originally Posted by ItalianGuns

Dr. C........

So I have had the horse shoe pattern on the two forehead sides ever since I was 14. My dad was bald at 18, but i've made it passed the 22 mark. It's still there, just like it was when I was 18-19. I started with ph's at a young age, 18. I know ph's have not caused it. My hair is a little thin, but nothing too obvious, and I do not have a bald spot in the "rose" (top of head, middle). Would you say that when you started using finasteride, you had most of these traits? How old may I ask? I am looking for something (other than rogane) that can still catch the problem and Correct it.


Thanks in advance.

Yes. I have MPB in my genes. I started to develop the "horseshoe patten" as you described it around the age of 23. Like you, I have never had thining at the vertex (no balding in the back of my head). I started using finasteride when I was 25 and I have used it daily for the past 12 years.

As I slowly developed the horseshoe over a few years, I also noticed that my individual hairs were not as thick as they once seemed. This is where finasteride help the most in the first year. I noticed after about 6 months that the individual hairs were returning to their previous thickness.

My assumptions were validated at the end of the study in which I was participating when the dermotologist conduc