08-23-2007, 10:09 PM
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#1 | |||
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Status: Your Girlfriend's Ex-Boyfriend
   
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Article Post From Chat Event 8/23
[dinoiii] 6:04 pm: Andropause and the aged male...does this offer comparability to the HPTA dysfxn seen with post-cycle eras?
[RisingAgainst] 6:04 pm: no it doesn't [] 6:04 pm: i dont even know what that means [] 6:04 pm: can you break it down a bit [dinoiii] 6:05 pm: And you base this off of RA? [dinoiii] 6:05 pm: Yup LB. [RisingAgainst] 6:05 pm: common sense dinoiii [RisingAgainst] 6:05 pm: look at what happens post cycle, and compare it to the slower effects of aging... they are obviously quite different [dinoiii] 6:05 pm: Andropause = male equivalent to menopause, male becomes hypogonadal (low gonad/testicular output - androgens/sperm, et al). [] 6:06 pm: ahh ic [] 6:06 pm: RA I dont think they are all that different [] 6:07 pm: other than the fact that you can bounce back [RisingAgainst] 6:07 pm: reasoning? [dinoiii] 6:07 pm: Point taken RA, BUT is the dysfunction seen as a result of irregularity to the HPTA -or- is itmore because of some alternate aspect? [RisingAgainst] 6:07 pm: you can 'bounce back' from andropause as well [] 6:07 pm: without prescription medicine? [] 6:07 pm: not likely [The Lounge]: Hacksaw has entered at 6:08 pm [dinoiii] 6:08 pm: Sure you can...let's say shutdown occurs for a prolonged timeframe and you get to PCT... [RisingAgainst] 6:08 pm: it's because with time we are meant to slow down and change, as much the same as puberty, we revert back into a state with lower test levels.. so consider this natural, and look at the post cycle time frame when you are actually putting yourself in this state with plans for recovering [dinoiii] 6:08 pm: Normal HPTA function can take up to years to get back to normal [] 6:09 pm: dayme [RisingAgainst] 6:09 pm: while this is true, I feel that after one cycle, you will never have the exact same hpta function as when you started [dinoiii] 6:09 pm: most people approximate time of cycle = time of PCT + additional time of cycle (or some alternate) [] 6:09 pm: right, but if you are going through andropause, your body's HPTA function will return to normal after a certain period of time? [RisingAgainst] 6:09 pm: higher/lower it makes no difference [dinoiii] 6:09 pm: this couldn't be further from the truth [RisingAgainst] 6:09 pm: during andropause your body is altering hpta function intentionally [dinoiii] 6:10 pm: NEITHER secenario will return to "normal" without intervention IF true shutdown has occured [The Lounge]: Paladin has entered at 6:10 pm [dinoiii] 6:10 pm: when you come out of your PCT, with a 10% decline in test levels per decade...you will likely NOT be able to attain PRE-cycle levels [RisingAgainst] 6:10 pm: as i mentioned  [dinoiii] 6:10 pm: BUT, lets see what the studies say...you must know I was building up to it... [RisingAgainst] 6:11 pm: yup.. saw it coming [RisingAgainst] 6:11 pm: brb pizza and PEPSI break.. yes im eating fatty effin pizza and a pepsi [] 6:11 pm: RA, told you I would whoop your ass to 7% [] 6:12 pm: alright D. so lets see these studies [RisingAgainst] 6:12 pm: dude... i was losing weight at 5k cals/day... try me? [dinoiii] 6:12 pm: In 2005, 15 hypogonadal men (mean age 68 years old) having gone through andropause observed increased grip strength and hemoglobin levels with BOTH androgen replacement and/or clomid -or- tamoxifen [] 6:13 pm: wtf [] 6:13 pm: how were ya pullin that off RA [RisingAgainst] 6:13 pm: of course.. thats an obvious study brutha.. [RisingAgainst] 6:13 pm: my job.. [RisingAgainst] 6:13 pm: 16 hours/sleep per week probably the key factor [RisingAgainst] 6:14 pm: i was just tryin to maintain... still ended up losing [dinoiii] 6:14 pm: Later that same year, men suffering from post-cycle HPTA shutdown also used either an extension of cycles and/or clomid/tamox to see ... you guessed it, increased grip strength and hemoglobin levels with both [Paladin] 6:14 pm: interesting [dinoiii] 6:14 pm: But, it doesn't stop with the Sih, R, et al studies... [RisingAgainst] 6:15 pm: dana, although the results are the same, That's to be EXPECTED brutha.. look what they were treated with in both cases, and figure that it was going to happen each time no matter what levels of shutdown/suppression/age were involved [dinoiii] 6:15 pm: But we must continue to get accurate survey, I would hope you would agree. [RisingAgainst] 6:16 pm: oh yes very much so, but we also need to do this test with normal avg every day men as well [RisingAgainst] 6:16 pm: and you guessed this already... increased grip strength and hemoglobin levels.. [dinoiii] 6:16 pm: What authors had done a year prior was establish the cutoff point on serum levels to be 300ng/dl FOR BOTH GROUPS in order to begin therapy [dinoiii] 6:16 pm: Nothing higher than that level. [] 6:16 pm: brb guys [dinoiii] 6:16 pm: Why does this play into this? [] 6:17 pm: same here [RisingAgainst] 6:17 pm: hmm well that does make more sense than just tossing men into a jar and testing [RisingAgainst] 6:17 pm: my thing though, is that that type of treatment will impact every male (generally speaking of course) [RisingAgainst] 6:18 pm: pct ridden or age ridden alike... give an average male the same treatment and he will have similar responses [dinoiii] 6:18 pm: HA! Yeah, I suppose...and the answer to your question was later found to be an EMPHATIC NO...with only a mere appx. 67% response rate in both cases [RisingAgainst] 6:18 pm: yet there was still a response rate [dinoiii] 6:18 pm: Well, what the hell happens when someone falls outside of the 2/3? [dinoiii] 6:18 pm: BUT THE SAME RESPONSE RATE. [RisingAgainst] 6:18 pm: and yes.. the 33%? [dinoiii] 6:19 pm: Well, they later in 2006 found that 5-alpha reduced agents increased the likelihood of response to a whopping 86-89%! [dinoiii] 6:19 pm: So, let's make sure everyone understands what this means [dinoiii] 6:20 pm: We tapped into some of the non-responders by using things like DHT derivatives...anyone for Epitho (Epi) products? [dinoiii] 6:20 pm: Question: Does a 5-alpha reduced agent have a place in PCT? [RisingAgainst] 6:21 pm: ok.. in my eyes, when you're in the pct timeframe, you go into this state with intentions of having suppressed/shutdown hpta and hopefully have plans of recovering... when you get old, you go into a state which is much different in terms of effects and expect to steadily decline.. it's like a 30 year old crying about declining test... it's not really below norm yet, but it's possible that it is declining.. when you are on cycle, your test declines as well, but for a different reason.. hence why [dinoiii] 6:21 pm: Anyone want to take a guess - 50/50 shot...survey of the room... [RisingAgainst] 6:21 pm: I say they are different pathways [RisingAgainst] 6:21 pm: no.. it doesn't despite that survery [dinoiii] 6:22 pm: persistent...fortunately, your question too was answered by their setup. [dinoiii] 6:23 pm: See, the genesis of the problem was different, HOWEVER, its soloution was virtually the same. With negative feedback systems, the anticipated model projected that the scenarios equaled out dependent upon cycle length. [dinoiii] 6:24 pm: Well, what about markers of androgen use? [RisingAgainst] 6:24 pm: ok... although the solution(s) were the same in this instance... look at wellbutrin.. sure antidepressant.. but adhd medication as well.. TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS brutha [dinoiii] 6:24 pm: And this is neat!!! [Paladin] 6:24 pm: the length was the determinent to equaling the scenarios? [dinoiii] 6:24 pm: yes, the length appeared to be the equalizing factor. [Paladin] 6:24 pm: Interesting [RisingAgainst] 6:25 pm: D... do you see where im coming from? [dinoiii] 6:25 pm: Ultimately, the hypothalamus would be the source you would be working on in the chain, which sort of makes the long-story short [RisingAgainst] 6:25 pm: im not tryin to play the devil's advocate.. just .. you know being me [dinoiii] 6:25 pm: Sure I do [RisingAgainst] 6:25 pm: well this is true, but andropause is much deeper than just your hpta... sure directly acting on it will impact your body, but for how long??? [dinoiii] 6:26 pm: I am only mentioning the author's thoughts which I had to agree with. I will likely put together a piece for a future CU OR in my subforum that includes the actual studies I am talking about... [RisingAgainst] 6:26 pm: when can you attain normal serum test levels or normal hpta production again once andropause is attained?? IMO you cant! [RisingAgainst] 6:27 pm: even with therapy.. once it's over... you will decline back down again [dinoiii] 6:27 pm: Well, increasing test levels (apparently directly or indirectly) will ultimately do one thing, but I find fascinating that 5-alpha reduced agents take care of a similar ratio [dinoiii] 6:27 pm: And with some low-dose therapy can be rather long-term if you can get somone assured of a level greater than 300ng/dl and hold em there
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08-23-2007, 10:09 PM
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#2 | |||
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Status: Your Girlfriend's Ex-Boyfriend
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[RisingAgainst] 6:27 pm: how do we know that over an extended period of time that diddling with our hptas through the use of anabolics doesnt indeed have a similar effect on our hptas as andropause??? if it does, we may never be FULLY recovered
[dinoiii] 6:27 pm: But the sides were UNIQUE and this is cool. [] 6:28 pm: back [dinoiii] 6:28 pm: Lipid levels got WORSE with the AAS users, BUT saw NO CHANGE with the Andropause subset. [dinoiii] 6:29 pm: But we are merely saying that in lieu of therapy, we will never return to PRE-cycle destinations of "normal" and that is a true "NEVER" [RisingAgainst] 6:29 pm: yes.. i agree.. im saying that what are the long term effects here? [dinoiii] 6:29 pm: Bone Mineral Density decreased in the younger AAS while the older subset saw NO CHANGE [dinoiii] 6:30 pm: Aggression seemed to increase in both [RisingAgainst] 6:30 pm: has anyone ever did one cycle, then waited 10 years and had more blood done? it doesnt work out correctly.. because age has an effect on this as well [dinoiii] 6:30 pm: I know, I know - what the hell [dinoiii] 6:31 pm: Well, as you age...long-term therapy will as we can see produce no real sides but what would appear increased aggression [dinoiii] 6:31 pm: What the hell is the rationale behind this? [RisingAgainst] 6:31 pm: aggression is a good thing... [dinoiii] 6:31 pm: OLD: no change in lipids (LDL, HDL, Tot cholesterol), no change in bone mineral density, increased aggression [dinoiii] 6:32 pm: YOUNG: Increased in lipids, Decrease in bone mineral density, increased aggression [RisingAgainst] 6:32 pm: it's because there was a lack.. a need.. a defecit whereas the younger user had plenty... this isnt as clear as day?? [dinoiii] 6:32 pm: But wait a minute - was I not just hypothesizing with the researchers that this happened by the same mechanism? [RisingAgainst] 6:33 pm: YOU were yes... myself... not quite [dinoiii] 6:33 pm: Explain to me the discrepency between sides BUT the same hypothesized mechanism (provided equalization through time occurs). [dinoiii] 6:34 pm: Yes, I do have the answer...but I am curious because you happen to be the most vocal RA right now. HA! [RisingAgainst] 6:34 pm: ok... in the older subject there is a deficiency for the testosterone correct? [dinoiii] 6:34 pm: yup...from the get-go [dinoiii] 6:34 pm: the effects were seen after therapy though [RisingAgainst] 6:34 pm: ok.. now look at our younger test subjects... no deficiencies in testosterone [RisingAgainst] 6:35 pm: adding to both is like filling cups... but what happens when you fill a cup that is full already??? SPILLS OVER [] 6:35 pm: anyone here other than RA and D?? haha [RisingAgainst] 6:35 pm: hence the adverse sides [dinoiii] 6:35 pm: yup at the start but we are talking sides after therapy, NOT at pre-cycle/pre-andropause time [dinoiii] 6:35 pm: Not really! [Paladin] 6:35 pm: Ya, just absorbing knowledge. [RisingAgainst] 6:35 pm: yes i understand [dinoiii] 6:35 pm: No spill over [RisingAgainst] 6:36 pm: but that older subject has to have that cup filled before it can spill over which obviously isnt happening at the doses provided [dinoiii] 6:36 pm: just negative feedback that acts as a hole in the bottom of the cups [RisingAgainst] 6:36 pm: provided the cup isnt being filled faster than the draining occurs [Hacksaw] 6:36 pm: I'm 58 with 540ng/dl. 5 years since a cycle,need to listen. [dinoiii] 6:36 pm: Nope - shutdown is seen with both (verified through serum gonadotropins declining at equal levels) [RisingAgainst] 6:37 pm: shutdown or suppression? [dinoiii] 6:37 pm: For all intensive purposes shutdown = suppression over time, which is what we are saying because they need to equal out [RisingAgainst] 6:37 pm: need to but do they really or is rationalized out to meet quotas? [dinoiii] 6:38 pm: nope unfunded by vested interest groups, which is what made these studies stick out to me [dinoiii] 6:38 pm: ok, ok... [dinoiii] 6:38 pm: answer = estrogen [dinoiii] 6:38 pm: the dirty stepsister [RisingAgainst] 6:39 pm: oh snap.. saw that coming and didnt say #$%^&* [RisingAgainst] 6:39 pm: dirty yes.. but helpful as well [RisingAgainst] 6:39 pm: well in the older case [The Lounge]: bLacKjAcK has entered at 6:40 pm [dinoiii] 6:40 pm: well...helpful is sometimes overrated because in the case of water weight, et al and increasing androgen receptor levels, it isn't all its cracked up to be [RisingAgainst] 6:40 pm: hi son [bLacKjAcK] 6:40 pm: yizzle [dinoiii] 6:40 pm: As a male increases in years - so does his fat and aromatase [RisingAgainst] 6:40 pm: yes but in performing normal daily actions it is quite beneficial [dinoiii] 6:40 pm: estrogen improves bone density [RisingAgainst] 6:41 pm: ok, but when you're treated the way aforementioned, estrogen is lowered [bLacKjAcK] 6:41 pm: Hi Mr. Dana. [dinoiii] 6:41 pm: estrogen improves blood lipid levels. [dinoiii] 6:41 pm: what up BJ? [bLacKjAcK] 6:41 pm: chillin darlin [RisingAgainst] 6:41 pm: hahaha "BJ" [bLacKjAcK] 6:41 pm: nice BB press btw.. [RisingAgainst] 6:41 pm: haha jk [bLacKjAcK] 6:41 pm: saw your log update today [dinoiii] 6:41 pm: is that me or RA? [bLacKjAcK] 6:41 pm: hahaha [RisingAgainst] 6:41 pm: you [bLacKjAcK] 6:42 pm: moooooost likely you [RisingAgainst] 6:42 pm: i dont have a log open... remember, torn rotator cuff [] 6:42 pm: #$%^&* i thought u had an open log RA [dinoiii] 6:42 pm: Well - that's fine so we have equaled out the lipids and we have figured out the bone density, why the hell did aggression increase? Isn't that a testosterone-related event? [RisingAgainst] 6:43 pm: not always [RisingAgainst] 6:43 pm: aggression can be directly related to soooo many things.. [dinoiii] 6:43 pm: RA is correct [dinoiii] 6:43 pm: don't let it go to your head though [RisingAgainst] 6:43 pm: ha! [RisingAgainst] 6:43 pm: what a statement [] 6:43 pm: hahah [RisingAgainst] 6:43 pm: *whispers to BJ*... go get him son [RisingAgainst] 6:44 pm: LOL [bLacKjAcK] 6:44 pm: :D [dinoiii] 6:44 pm: See, I went back further and found a study from 1997 that actually saw INCREASED aggression between test replacement AND estrogen replacement [dinoiii] 6:44 pm: yes, it was double-blind, placebo-controlled [RisingAgainst] 6:44 pm: that's good D, but honestly... there are other cofactors to be considered as well[RisingAgainst] 6:44 pm: oh [dinoiii] 6:44 pm: SO why is this? [RisingAgainst] 6:44 pm: .... shoot me down again [RisingAgainst] 6:45 pm: what im trying to get at is stress...... [dinoiii] 6:45 pm: what's the body going to do with increased estrogen? No brainer [RisingAgainst] 6:45 pm: but it seems unlikely due to these studies [RisingAgainst] 6:45 pm: cvonvert it [RisingAgainst] 6:45 pm: convert* [bLacKjAcK] 6:45 pm: one thing: what in the hell are we talking about? [dinoiii] 6:45 pm: well...fortunately, it aids the HPTA too [dinoiii] 6:45 pm: BJ came in wayyyy too late on this one [dinoiii] 6:45 pm: [RisingAgainst] 6:45 pm: andropause VS pct types of shutdown [RisingAgainst] 6:46 pm: ya.. you came late.. better than coming early [RisingAgainst] 6:46 pm: LOL!!!! [bLacKjAcK] 6:46 pm: I guess so, I will wait till the next convo to set you all straight. [RisingAgainst] 6:46 pm: dinoiii we need your 'premie' article that you boasted about on DA [dinoiii] 6:46 pm: premie? [RisingAgainst] 6:46 pm: remember the premature ejaculation thread? [] 6:46 pm: noooo [dinoiii] 6:46 pm: IS RA just being RA? [bLacKjAcK] 6:46 pm: wtf? [RisingAgainst] 6:46 pm: off topic section... you said you had a preemie article [dinoiii] 6:47 pm: I guess so...so we'll move on [RisingAgainst] 6:47 pm: ... do i need to go dig it up D? [RisingAgainst] 6:47 pm: lol [bLacKjAcK] 6:47 pm: Let me tell you how to fix premie. [RisingAgainst] 6:47 pm: this kid was complaining about it and you said you had an article for it [dinoiii] 6:47 pm: exactly [bLacKjAcK] 6:47 pm: Think about ugly fat girls. [RisingAgainst] 6:47 pm: i wanted to get a laugh in [dinoiii] 6:47 pm: a laugh from me....lol - there... happy? [RisingAgainst] 6:48 pm: haha yes sort of [RisingAgainst] 6:48 pm: anyways [RisingAgainst] 6:48 pm: moving right along... [RisingAgainst] 6:48 pm: to your left you'll see a disappointed native american [RisingAgainst] 6:48 pm: and to your right.. you'll see his son [RisingAgainst] 6:48 pm: hahaha!~ [dinoiii] 6:48 pm: anyway is actually the appropriate term anyway"s" is NOT a word
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08-23-2007, 10:09 PM
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#3 | |||
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Status: Your Girlfriend's Ex-Boyfriend
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__________________
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