Tribulus Terrestris: Worthless or Unjustifiably Chastized? Part I

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

... I know from personal experience that hypertest was able to prolong the effects of shutdown (I started taking it week 3 cause lethargy and testicular shrinkage.. so on and so forth)

Wow, I've never heard of this prolonging testicular shrinkage.
I was always under the impression Trib was suppose to help you recover from cycle and get the boys to drop?

Could it be the timing of use?? To early in PCT??

We will have to wait for the continuation of Doc's research...

[B-natural]

It helps boost LH as far as I understand, and you were using it "on" cycle, correct voo? I think if you have the shrinkage and/or its a problem I'd start using the trib prod immediately, rather than when you begin noticing the shrinkage. Isn't trib low grade for reaching the pathways to boost natty test, thus its reason for having other products normally added to a given product, like longifolia jack or rhodiola rosea to help boost natty test even further.

sry haveta read a lil more....

[GotTest]

I've heard good things about Hypertest.
Wouldn't it be used ON cycle and during PCT, to minimize shutdown and keep libido.
I thought when LH is stimulated it kicks in natural test production, which then recovers HPTA??

I'll let the good Doc take it from here..

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by GotTest

I've heard good things about Hypertest.
Wouldn't it be used ON cycle and during PCT, to minimize shutdown and keep libido.
I thought when LH is stimulated it kicks in natural test production, which then recovers HPTA??

I'll let the good Doc take it from here..

While it may sound good on paper, its translation to reality suffers precipitously. No, this is not my dogging of any particular product, but moreso offering up the scientific rationale of why it may not be a good idea to run this concurrently with a cycle.

For full review of the HPTA and the like which will be included in the discussion that follows, I invite each of you that are uncertain of the vocabulary being used to review PCT: ACV. For those that are comfortable, we shall move forward.

So, of our goal (prevent LH from totally plummeting)...we have 2 tasks at hand:

[1] Prevent inhibition to make tribulus worthwhile in the first place

-and-

[2] Figure out how to incorporate trib appropriately

Unfortunately, both goals suffer!

--------------------

Because high androgen levels sustained around the clock (the essential ideal if you are running a cycle) WILL cause inhibition, traditional cycles simply cannot avoid inhibition of LH production while "on."

Classicaly, three ways have been suggested to potentially offset this though they will be certainly less efficacious in the long-run:

[1] Avoid having high androgen levels around the clock. This can be done, for example, by using oral AAS only in the morning, with the last dose being approximately at noontime. As mentioned though gains suffer precipitously.

[2] Use an amount and kind of AAS that is low enough to avoid much inhibition. You may also wind up not only with a less efficacious cycle in this instance, but also inhibition to boot! A double-negative in this instance not yielding a positive.

[3] One could use an antiandrogen, but this would totally defeat the purpose of the cycle.


----------------------

Of those three aforementioned subsets of suggestions, ONLY option #1 has any hope of being ok, but it happens to be a case of mismatch with how to use trib most effectively (which CONTRARY TO BELIEF, endogenous offering of revving up LH production would be MOST EFFICACIOUS IN THE MORNING, NOT THE NIGHT - Please question products' science if they are telling you to use this item at night when test and LH are lowest across the board in males).

If we throw your tribulus suggestion into the fray however, it doesn't make sense as we cannot place it in the morning if our doses of PH/PS/DeS/AAS should be taken at that time. It makes no sense by the working models of either suppression and/or endogenous production.



D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by GotTest

I've heard good things about Hypertest.
Wouldn't it be used ON cycle and during PCT, to minimize shutdown and keep libido.
I thought when LH is stimulated it kicks in natural test production, which then recovers HPTA??

I'll let the good Doc take it from here..

While it may sound good on paper, its translation to reality suffers precipitously. No, this is not my dogging of any particular product, but moreso offering up the scientific rationale of why it may not be a good idea to run this concurrently with a cycle.

For full review of the HPTA and the like which will be included in the discussion that follows, I invite each of you that are uncertain of the vocabulary being used to review PCT: ACV. For those that are comfortable, we shall move forward.

So, of our goal (prevent LH from totally plummeting)...we have 2 tasks at hand:

[1] Prevent inhibition to make tribulus worthwhile in the first place

-and-

[2] Figure out how to incorporate trib appropriately

Unfortunately, both goals suffer!

--------------------

Because high androgen levels sustained around the clock (the essential ideal if you are running a cycle) WILL cause inhibition, traditional cycles simply cannot avoid inhibition of LH production while "on."

Classicaly, three ways have been suggested to potentially offset this though they will be certainly less efficacious in the long-run:

[1] Avoid having high androgen levels around the clock. This can be done, for example, by using oral AAS only in the morning, with the last dose being approximately at noontime. As mentioned though gains suffer precipitously.

[2] Use an amount and kind of AAS that is low enough to avoid much inhibition. You may also wind up not only with a less efficacious cycle in this instance, but also inhibition to boot! A double-negative in this instance not yielding a positive.

[3] One could use an antiandrogen, but this would totally defeat the purpose of the cycle.


----------------------

Of those three aforementioned subsets of suggestions, ONLY option #1 has any hope of being ok, but it happens to be a case of mismatch with how to use trib most effectively (which CONTRARY TO BELIEF, endogenous offering of revving up LH production would be MOST EFFICACIOUS IN THE MORNING, NOT THE NIGHT - Please question products' science if they are telling you to use this item at night when test and LH are lowest across the board in males).

If we throw your tribulus suggestion into the fray however, it doesn't make sense as we cannot place it in the morning if our doses of PH/PS/DeS/AAS should be taken at that time. It makes no sense by the working models of either suppression and/or endogenous production.



D_

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

[1] Avoid having high androgen levels around the clock. This can be done, for example, by using oral AAS only in the morning, with the last dose being approximately at noontime. As mentioned though gains suffer precipitously.

So let me see if I'm following this correctly...
Obviously for the BEST gains with PH/AAS, shutdown is inevitable. We want the AAS to "override" our own anabolic/androgen system to make gains.Understood.

Now, to "minimize" shutdown, we do NOT want to "override" our own system while it is at is LOWEST, so it has a chance to RECOVER?? Right?

That being said, I know your not a big fan of the Pulse Method, but doesn't it make sense to follow the Pulse method especially if you can take your dosage before evening time?
I know (from others experience) the pulse method dose give slower gains, but I rarely (if ever) hear anyone speak of shutdown, or the use of SERM during PCT.

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Of those three aforementioned subsets of suggestions, ONLY option #1 has any hope of being ok, but it happens to be a case of mismatch with how to use trib most effectively (which CONTRARY TO BELIEF, endogenous offering of revving up LH production would be MOST EFFICACIOUS IN THE MORNING, NOT THE NIGHT - Please question products' science if they are telling you to use this item at night when test and LH are lowest across the board in males).

If we throw your tribulus suggestion into the fray however, it doesn't make sense as we cannot place it in the morning if our doses of PH/PS/DeS/AAS should be taken at that time. It makes no sense by the working models of either suppression and/or endogenous production.

Tribulus sounds useless "ON", but sounds more useful PCT in the morning only.
Correct?

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by GotTest

So let me see if I'm following this correctly...
Obviously for the BEST gains with PH/AAS, shutdown is inevitable. We want the AAS to "override" our own anabolic/androgen system to make gains.Understood.

I'm unsure that's what we "want" exactly, but we as per your first statement are sometimes subject to the inevitable.

Now, to "minimize" shutdown, we do NOT want to "override" our own system while it is at is LOWEST, so it has a chance to RECOVER?? Right?

The idea posed was that if we were to avoid the negatives of shutdown, we would have to employ one of the three techniques I mentioned above and as that is said...the most readily available by sure ease is the first one, with using doses purely in the AM, a time when trib would be most successful and then it essentially nullifies the trib rationale.

That being said, I know your not a big fan of the Pulse Method, but doesn't it make sense to follow the Pulse method especially if you can take your dosage before evening time?

I know (from others experience) the pulse method dose give slower gains, but I rarely (if ever) hear anyone speak of shutdown, or the use of SERM during PCT.

The issue I have with people "not speaking of shutdown" is this is most often SUBJECTIVE rather than anything people have lab tests (BOTH baseline and peri-cycle) for, which makes it LESS useful info in the side effect rationale. Now, as for "pulsing," one thing I would essentially say that both Dr.D and myself agree on is that efficacy dips. I am going to try and locate a thread where I posed some questions to Dr.D about pulsing which is a bit more tell-tale on his agreement with what I am talking about when I get a chance to search.

Tribulus sounds useless "ON", but sounds more useful PCT in the morning only. Correct?

That's the absolute best summary statement I could give you - so effectively YES, if there is any efficacy to be had (which was the basis of the article with appropriate standardization et al, which has NOT been explored properly through the minimal research available as far as I am concerned)!


D_

[B-natural]

Nice response D, I was curious as to your thoughts on using certain agents to help maintain natty test levels while on cycle....

Some have pushed a certain ecdy based product while on cycle at least I believe it was ecdy based

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by B-natural

Nice response D, I was curious as to your thoughts on using certain agents to help maintain natty test levels while on cycle....

Some have pushed a certain ecdy based product while on cycle at least I believe it was ecdy based

Ecdy - dinoiii does NOT buy into this product. It lacks science and reality! Post-prohormone world attempt at virtual junk!


D_

[kappaz]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Ecdy - dinoiii does NOT buy into this product. It lacks science and reality! Post-prohormone world attempt at virtual junk!


D_

I couldn't agree more.