Limits of "good" endocrine function

[SuperBig]

D_,

Given these things:
1. "good diet" which I will define as some thing that you have put together, with proper intake of healthy fats/oils/nuts(butters) and proteins and carbs, along with proper meal frequency and quantity. In other words proper glucose/insulin modulation.
2. A "good" workout plan that focuses on compound lifts - again, like what you would put together
3. Supplements only focused around vitamins, minerals, protein powders, and products such as Body Octane/Clout, or the mysterious "Thunder"
4. Such an individual is not a competitive athlete, bodybuilder, figure competitor

Would there really be a need for supplements that manipulate the endocrine system (such as test boosters or PH/DS or even AIs)? In other words, given the proper raw materials, should you really have to worry about endocrine shortcomings?

I do not doubt that they may "work", but in the case of test boosters, you will return to baseline after some period of time, and in the case of PH/DS you could very well not return to baseline in any short period of time.

I am proposing that instead, shouldn't the manipulation of baseline be the focus of our efforts first and foremost? Especially as a male ages beyond his 20s.

[NateW]

good post man interesting topic

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by SuperBig

D_,

Given these things:
1. "good diet" which I will define as some thing that you have put together, with proper intake of healthy fats/oils/nuts(butters) and proteins and carbs, along with proper meal frequency and quantity. In other words proper glucose/insulin modulation.
2. A "good" workout plan that focuses on compound lifts - again, like what you would put together
3. Supplements only focused around vitamins, minerals, protein powders, and products such as Body Octane/Clout, or the mysterious "Thunder"
4. Such an individual is not a competitive athlete, bodybuilder, figure competitor

Would there really be a need for supplements that manipulate the endocrine system (such as test boosters or PH/DS or even AIs)? In other words, given the proper raw materials, should you really have to worry about endocrine shortcomings?

I do not doubt that they may "work", but in the case of test boosters, you will return to baseline after some period of time, and in the case of PH/DS you could very well not return to baseline in any short period of time.

I am proposing that instead, shouldn't the manipulation of baseline be the focus of our efforts first and foremost? Especially as a male ages beyond his 20s.

One of the things that I often discuss with clients (yes, you included) is that supplementation inclusion is by far the LAST thing to be concerned about. Still, I get clients almost like patients suggesting it wouldn't be worth the price of admission had I not suggested the use of something.

You are also familiar that the patterns of supplementation I offer to clients are actually quite different than label claims would offer as well. The most common things that I am consulted on actually includes thyroid regulation greater than androgen regulation actually and there is probably a good reason for that.

Adrenal regulation is more often than not second even, although I think people have unreal expectations and have fallen victim of ad campaigns in the realm of cortisol regulation - however, aldosterone/renin/angiotensin comes into significant play when considering contest prep programs.

I am uncertain what exactly you are looking for with your question, but if you are asking whether or not concerning yourself with diet/training regulation prior to the addition of supplements, then ... yes, obviously I would concur.


D_

[Gixxer82]

Hes asking if you can raise your baseline of test naturally, rather than raising in temporarily.

[SuperBig]

My question is this (you know I have to make it long):

My thought process from this journey is why mess with your endo system (if you have the above 4 constants)?

You have specifically stated that it is all about ratios as far as the endocrine system is concerned (from one of the recent DHT/5AR threads). The endocrine system is all about balance and if you push on one thing, i.e. increasing test, then you have to consider aromatase, or SHBG upregulation. If you inhibit 5AR you could see an upregulation in SHBG, etc. And this does not even consider progesterone or prolactin, or thyroid or cortisol

So, if you have the above 4 things (diet, workout, certain supplements, no need for competitive advantage), for what reasons would the endocrine system not ultimately achieve "optimal" balance?

My current belief, is that I bet that if I did not engage in any form of endocrine supps, such as Drive, or Activate, MassFX, or Primal Male, etc, I would save a shitpile of money and my endocrine system might very well be performing optimally, based on my program with you? Or is there just certain biological/genetic limits that you have seen in your practice that you ultimately just say, "man, your endo system is not functioning, you need to engage these supps or go to HRT"?

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by SuperBig

My question is this (you know I have to make it long):

My thought process from this journey is why mess with your endo system (if you have the above 4 constants)?

I have already agreed with you here, but this is still more perspective than anything - as I have also suggested that if ever content on a personal level with body comp, please shoot me. In other words, I would not be here if there wasn't something to minimally attempt to modify.

You have specifically stated that it is all about ratios as far as the endocrine system is concerned (from one of the recent DHT/5AR threads). The endocrine system is all about balance and if you push on one thing, i.e. increasing test, then you have to consider aromatase, or SHBG upregulation. If you inhibit 5AR you could see an upregulation in SHBG, etc. And this does not even consider progesterone or prolactin, or thyroid or cortisol

Again, also true - and a relative theme of PCT:ACV. Still, one of the things we do as bbers is try and modulate and as a result stretch the limits of endocrine manipulation.

So, if you have the above 4 things (diet, workout, certain supplements, no need for competitive advantage), for what reasons would the endocrine system not ultimately achieve "optimal" balance?

Again, the definition of optimal may certainly vary dependent upon who you are speaking to.

My current belief, is that I bet that if I did not engage in any form of endocrine supps, such as Drive, or Activate, MassFX, or Primal Male, etc, I would save a shitpile of money and my endocrine system might very well be performing optimally, based on my program with you? Or is there just certain biological/genetic limits that you have seen in your practice that you ultimately just say, "man, your endo system is not functioning, you need to engage these supps or go to HRT"?

Again, I still think it is going beyond the limits of "optimal" in terms of supraphysiologic. In the essence of translation to clinical practice - it just doesn't define the "normal" desires of most people to challenge what that "optimal" is. Most are auspiciously content to live out status quo.



D_