Ckd Q&a

[dinoiii]

Author's Note: These were some questions that have been asked on alternate forums that I thought would serve prime placement here in the BO:R subforum.

Originally Posted by Bnatural

Ok, I am a few weeks out from starting my contest diet, especially if its a Keto type diet I want my body to adapt before it really gets ugly. I am generally between 9-11% bf unless dieting for a contest, I guess thats somewhat lean. I've heard dinoiii say "you seem fairly lean" before so just curious on the keto effects and how it would work.

I am and will be using Halodrol clone and 1,4 ad, halo 6weeks coupled with bold which will be used for 8wks, followed by hyperdrolx2, retain2, and with leviathan reloaded coming to light, there may be an incorporation of that or some other fat burner in the mix.

I like the idea of possibly gaining muscle while on a diet in which I lose fat. However with ph's in the mix I don't think it's in my best interest to go strictly keto, but it seems that the strictly keto diets allow muscle gain. So thats my dilemma....

Run a strict keto? Or a modified keto? I also am not a fan of the keto workout program but am willing to modify, with a training program similar to below

mon- chest/back
tues- quads/hams/calves
wed- shoulders/bi's/tris/traps
thurs-off
fri- full body glyco depletion
sat-off
sun-off
or
mon-chest/should/tris
tues-quads/hams/calves
wed-back/traps/bi's/rear delts
thurs-off
fri- full body glyco depletion workout
sat-off
sun-off

Someone wanna give pointers?

Possibly a TKD type diet? I like the idea of a weekend supercompensation or similar as it gets me prepped and I won't need to change much for the pre-contest carb-up....

A "modified-keto" doesn't exist! Its keto, or its low-carb, etc... but a ketogenic diet is not considered modifiable...this is stupid "armchair internet guru" speak. That said, to me,... you should run CKD and re-assess after a month's time how you are coming along. I do agree this is certainly in-line with contest prep carb-ups, though I presume many don't know what that may entail.

Your first option workout is a much better option btw.

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

A straight Keto diet would be my route of choice... but I like em a lot... For you, you may opt to run a normal leaning out diet (read: caloric defecit)... just a thought.

I don't agree...a strict keto would be something that would NOT allow you to go for that long (his contest is in March I believe)...and this would likely render him to come in pretty flat.

Originally Posted by Bnatural

I kind of want a carb depletion or to lower carbs and have a weekend carb up, I think it will help prep/prime my body to suck up and absorb all of the carbs especially when I carb up prior to stepping on stage.

So I guess another q would be, where should I start my carbs at, because I know I will have to drop mainly carbs as the weeks pass.
Should I start at say 100 or 150, and go down from there? Would adding in glucophase xr be a good idea?
split the carbs up by consuming them with my morning meal and pwo meal?

Where are your carbs at now? Adding GXR to the mix is ideal, BUT abandon it on your carb-ups. In other words, take it days 1-5...take off from ingestion of the GXR days 6 and 7.

When do you workout? Splitting the carbs up is truly essential, but you can likely DECREASE protein if you ramp up carbs in the immediate PWO shake. Still, your PWO offerings (namely extremely unique to the position you suggest here) are:

First AM: + complex CHOs (roughly 10-20%)

Other Meals: low-carb (still space out about 10grams with each meal here until we further reduce)

First PWO: SHAKE - simple CHOs (likely 50% + Decreased PRO)

Second PWO: WHOLE-MEAL - compex CHOs (likely 20% + Increased PRO)

Note: The percentages listed are of the total carb tally for the day.

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

All or nothing brother. Either start with a true CKD and follow it all the way through or do a normal carb down.

Again...I'd be a bit more careful with contest dieting at what is now about 20-ish + weeks out (b-nat will have to offer the true number).

Originally Posted by Bnatural

I think even with a carb down you need some supercomp days to "refill" stores as even with a carb down you are depleted.

Dinoiii fill me in when/if you get a chance...

I do think you can take advantage of supercompensation periods if employed correctly.

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

D-Why would you not use GXR during the carb up. I thought that would the ideal time since it acts as an insulin mimicer. Just trying to understand the nuances since I am toying with a CKD for contest prep

Actually, this is a GREAT question and I am happy you asked it. The rationale actually centers on what you are trying to accomplish - glycogen supercompensation. It is the same reason you refrain from training on the weekend carb-ups (training depletes glycogen; unfortunately...so does K-RALA). What you are doing is allowing all incoming carbohydrates to be essentially stockpiled as muscle glycogen. When glycogen is appropriately depleted, you can actually store MORE glycogen than you would otherwise fit...say your bicep is normally a 2.5 pound box and holds that amount of glycogen, NOW it can hold 5.0 pounds of glycogen which will REALLY aid tension workouts to start the week and give you that "not-so-flat" look at the same time.

Originally Posted by Bnatural

I plan to start the diet and supplements on December 10th, which is 16weeks out from the show. My diet is a bit high in carbs right now and I would not really call it a "diet" as I have still not structured a proper eating plan. I plan to run Bold/Halo for 8 weeks, halo will be started after the 1st 2 weeks of bold, then ran throughout the cycle. Then I will be using HDx2/Retain2/ and a fat burner, I will get some GXR since it seems necessary.

I workout in the a.m. at around 10a.m., sometimes 10:30a.m.
I found some articles by lyle mc and I linked the articles at the other site I frequent. I have been reading through his articles and am very enlightened, I am glad the workout protocol will work. However will need some help on how to properly set it up as well as the full body depletion workout (kinda new to me) Thanx for the help Dinoiii and how often/when should I dose the GXR?

You can front load GXR on Monday and Tuesdays to expedite the process...usually after about two training sessions and low-carb, many of my clients are fully depleted and ready to go. After Tuesday, I usually adapt a normal GXR dosing protocol for most or they end up hypoglycemic (NOT the goal, obviously).

Fortunately in the mean time, you also increase insulin sensitivity with the low-carb diet, which will also work to your advantage come the supercomp.


D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by B-natural

So, where should I start my carbs at? and when should I start the GXR as I will be starting this diet at 16wks out?

Where are your carbs now?

The GXR is ok to start immediately when the CKD commenses.

16-20 weeks is completely typical as we both know for people's pre-determined contest dieting protocols.

I know I don't haveta cut carbs drastically, but don't want to start too high, would 100-150 work, or is that making you go

Depends on how you define "work."

What you would be doing is modulating insulin rather than creating a ketotic state - both instances will harbor relative success if run appropriately. Things like avocados and nuts do have inherent carbs and may be additional foods you throw into such a prescription to adjust with ease.

I know Lyle has said that there is a 4wk adaptation period to a CKD type diet.

I like Lyle's work overall. We would certainly argue things out to some level, I am sure, but there is an adaptation to ketosis that never really is able to take place because of the glycogen super-recomps. Its a very long and complex topic that is beyond the scope of this thread I am afraid.

And I will only need to use the GXR Mon and Tues? or at higher doses Mon and Tues and then on wed, thurs, fri(?is friday needed) at a lower dose?

Mon: Doses: 4-6
Tues: Doses: 3-5
Wed: Doses: 2-3
Thurs: Doses: 2-3
Fri: Doses: 1-2; NOTHING after you begin "carb-up!"

* PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOSING THE INSULIN-MIMETIC ANYWHERE AROUND THE SLEEP HOURS AS YOU CAN BECOME SIGNIFICANTLY HYPOGLYCEMIC.

And I was under the same assumption as nj, thinking that the ALA component was a nutrient "driving" agent (hope this is what you were thinking nj) and that the ALA added in driving the glycogen into the muscles.

Originally Posted by njmuscle66

Yes that is what I was thinking HOWEVER Dana's logic and rationale actually makes sense. :D
I am going to have to give it a whirl soon since my body fat is getting a tad too high for my likeing. Might be time for a CKD cut program soon

HA! I am trying to settle down the science and although NOT abandon it...explain a little bit better for the layman what I am getting at. I am curious of both of your runs with the CKD. Let me know if you can if you guys are logging them, etc...


D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by B-natural

1. My carbs are currently at 300-350, rather high, but it's what is working right now, I guess. I plan to start this dec.10th
2. Will be gettin some (GXR) on my next order then
3. I was worried about 16-20 as you said I'd be flat, guess thats with the true ketosis states, rather than insulin modding
4. Work? will the #of carbs do the job and not leave me lookin like a twig come showtime
5. I will setup the diet and training within the next wk and see what you think
6. well you and lyle are both genuises, so I would expect some arguments
7. Ya, no sleepy time hypo moments, I do like waking up in the morning
8. Diet will be logged for contest prep purposes and the training/supps will be logged in reviews, under a near TM-ed FREAK CYCLE slogan

Another q, with this not being a keto diet, what will my carb-up's look like?
And training seems like it would/could be different, since this isn't a keto diet, or is the keto diet where we are headed?
Thanx as always doc.!

Originally Posted by B-natural

6. well you and lyle are both genuises, so I would expect some arguments

he's "prettier"

8. Diet will be logged for contest prep purposes and the training/supps will be logged in reviews, under a near TM-ed FREAK CYCLE slogan

Will follow, but drop me an email to announce its arrival.

Another q, with this not being a keto diet, what will my carb-up's look like?

You are doing a CKD, no? I am confused by this statement. Are you asking for the general setup for a carb-up? What kind of depths are you (and your significant other) willing to sink to to look your best?

And training seems like it would/could be different, since this isn't a keto diet,
or is the keto diet where we are headed?
Thanx as always doc.!

There are many ways training could be devised. Again - what is usually offered works best with the diet though...ok, ok - so I will be unveiling a new training protocol in early '08 you will likely find better...BUT unfortunately, until then, I have to digress to its predecessor.

I wasn't headed toward a strict keto. In fact, there are VERY FEW times I might encourage a strict keto diet (of the non-cyclic variety).


D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by B-natural

dinoiii, for the tension workouts, what rep range should I be focusing on? 6-12, or....?

NO - 4-6 or 6-8

Pretty decent weight used (suggestion 80-85% 1RM).

Originally Posted by B-natural

damn, time to be a big boy, guess I'll go with 6-8.

6-8 with your upcoming show in mind, is probably the safe bet.

If you've never trained like this (higher weight/low"er" reps), the first few weeks will be almost "anabolic." Training parameters that are changed precipitously have usually uncharacteristic results.

Originally Posted by B-natural

I like periodization, so I will stick with my 8-15 reps that I am currently employing, then moving down in reps and hopefully ( ) up in weights should give me a nice little boost.

and the 6-8 never changes throughout the 16 weeks?

The complete thought process that centers on whether or not to include varying rep ranges depends on whether or not you will continue to sacrifice progressive overload.

For instance, lets say weeks 1-5, you keep increasing weight (progessive overload) but stall out weeks 6-7 or whatever...then something need be changed.

You already are getting alternative movements on your Friday/Saturday depletion workout that should have one goal in mind and will be more in line with your normal rep ranges with a lot less weight.

Originally Posted by B-natural

gotcha, understand very much, and it's getting very hard to find Glucophase, I got 1 bottle of 2 that I ordered, got another from a diff site, hopefully they don't give me a DC-ed email

I believe they are revamping the formula, but I could be wrong...dunno...

Originally Posted by B-natural

dinoiii, what type of protein should I get? VPX Zero Carb or....curious on what to have PWO, should I use strictly protein then wait to have a protein/fat meal or....

or.....?

Not sure if a PWO cocktail was in the BO:R didn't see one

I use VPX Zero Carb during any low-carb diet for sure.


PWO:

Immediately - < SHAKE > Protein + BCAAs (though my recommendations on BCAAs are body-composition dependent, but I know what you are based on suggestion in this thread and in other interactions...use about 6 grams of leucine and anywhere from 1-3 grams of valine and isoleucine; 3 would hit the prototype of a 2:1:1, but it is NOT necessary)

1-hour later - < WHOLE MEAL > Protein + Fat meal (and yes, you SHOULD HAVE FAT in this meal)



D_

D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by Bnatural

The reason I have another fat source by certain things is to try and watch the sat. fat ratio with the unsaturated fats, to make sure I am only getting a certain % of sat fats, you (dinoiii) said that would make it more heart healthy in a diff article.

Let's see what you mean about watching saturated fat, shall we...

Originally Posted by B-natural

4 Whole Eggs (PAM EVOO Spray to coat pan)
1 oz Cheese (0 carb variety)

4.5 grams sat fat per egg

1 Scoop Whey Protein (PWO)
12g BCAA's

I would combine some sort of other macro here. [read: fat]

3 oz Chicken
2 TBSP EVOO

4 grams sat fat (2 grams per tbsp.)

4 oz (90% Lean Beef)
FAT???

You will get some fat here with the beef...sat fat about 8-10 grams

5 oz Chicken
3 Slices Bacon

Bacon is obvious as a sat. fat haven, no?

3 oz Albacore Tuna
2TBSP Sesame Oil with 1 TBSP Vinegar

Interesting, but ok...4 grams sat fat.

4 oz (90% Lean Beef)
Fat????

Again, about 8-10 grams sat fat likely.

2 Scoops Whey Protein
2 TBSP Coconut Oil

While coconut oil is generally MCTs...MCTs ARE sat fat! They don't exactly burn the same way though. About 22 grams.


Total sat fat: roughly 78-85 grams (dependent upon the oils and meat qty.)

Not terrible, but it is approaching half of your fat content for the day out of saturated fats.

Would adding sesamin be worth the cost on this diet, or....?

A qualified "it depends."


D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by B-natural

jus bumpin this for dinoiii.

also curious if sushi would be ok during the 1st 24hrs, i like most kinds of sushi.

and is wms fine for the 1st day, or.....

Yes, but you will have to calculate fat content. It could raise quite readily if you consume too much. Again, fat re-iteration (about 10% on carb-ups).

Originally Posted by B-natural

so where should I be getting more fat sources from, get some fish in there?

You could do fish...sure. If you can stomach it, that is (some can't).

i thought fats PWO would be a bad idea, thats why i was doing the bcaa+whey, then an hr later having a meal with fat...

Immediately PWO...I did NOT recommend fats. The first whole meal after that should include fats.

Originally Posted by B-natural

Another thing I wanted to ask dinoiii, was what supps are essential during this?

I have:
Glucophase XR
Syntrax R ALA
Sesamin 500mg 3x/day
B-Vitamins 100(2x/day)
GNC ACES
Vit. C 500(2x/day)
Green Magnitude 1 serving PWO
BCAA's 10-15g's PWO
Protein
Omega 3's

What else do I need?
L-Carnitine?

What about things like arginine? are they ok, or are they not a good idea on a keto diet?

"Essential" is a word that depends on many things. Of those you list, the only things essential in my book are the B Vitamins, ACES, Vit C, and Omega 3's. The rest is likely subject to different nomenclature.

Don't get too caught up in the supplements as they don't make or break a CKD...proper diet and exercise always trump.

Still, L-carnitine as well as L-arginine can be used as well as many of the other things you list. It is most dependent upon what you are doing with them and employing them with some rationale in mind that makes most sense.

Originally Posted by B-natural

Did we agree on where macros should be, I know there is some discrepancy between the levels the protein should be at in a keto diet.

I believe I have set it up to be 40/60 Pro/Fat...
would 35/65 be more appropriate

"discrepency" according to whom? My info or someone elses (GASP)...HA! If anything seems contradictory - take MY advice above all else...HA, HA!!!

The reality is that either ratio you have provided above will work - much of the specifics are beyond the scope of this post, BUT you will find out VERY quick if you are going about it right. TRUST ME.

And with the carb-ups, I believe it was said, or you said to keep protein the same, or should I drop it down a bit?

Keep it the SAME.

I have 2 bottles of Levi. Reloaded, so I think I am going to use those for 6 weeks, if you really see a problem with that, instead of the 4, please say it, and I will stick with 4wks

Please post the ingredients to this product again for my recollection (no time to look up right now). Thanks.

what about a glucose monitor? essential? what brand, i've seen them from 10-75 bucks, and want a decent one, but def. not a 40+ one, lookin for the 10-25 range, but.... who knows, jus tell me what ya think

A glucometer will help you fine tune meals and various products...you will have the best guesstimate about how your body will respond.

As for price ranges (they vary place to place). Tell ya what - give me the name of a product you have in mind and I will either give it the thumb's up or down. Sound like a plan?

Originally Posted by B-natural

sounds like a plan, and I was referring to higher levels of protein possibly being converted to glucose..

Yeah, I got what you were talking about and responded accordingly. If you are too high and/or too low, I will coach you on how to assess this when you have a week under your belt.

Leviathan Reloaded Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 2 Capsules
Servings Per Container: 45
Proprietary Blend: 1000 Mgs
Caffeine
Tribulus Ext 80% Saponins, 20% Protodioscin
3,3'-Diindolylmethane
Coleus Forskohili 20% Forskolin
Acacia Rigidula
Hordenine
PEA (Phenylethylamine)
Velvet Bean Extract 20% l-dopa
Phyllanthus Niruri 10%
Ficus Bengalensis Extract 10:1

Yohimbine HCl, 11-Hydroxy-Yohimbine, 9mgs

Why in the hell did they use DIM?

Anyway - there is some possibility efficacy will be shot at 6 weeks. Yohimbine (NOT "yohimbine" which is ILLEGAL unless you have a PRESCRIPTION ... mislabeled??? I hate how companies do this. Yohimbe bark contains 6% indole alkaloids which is 10-15% yohimbine, still 3rd party independents show that most commercial products contain NO yohimbine at all and this is a supply-side issue rather than anything else - so it IS NOT THE SAME THING EXACTLY and could otherwise lend PAL in a heap of trouble if suggested to the propery authority)?

There is some benefit to holding off orthostatic hypotension in patients treated concurrently with l-dopa so the velvet bean "COULD" be a good addition, though suggestion of such is a very rough translation and it would be completely irresponsible for me to suggest this.

How good will it be? Well, I don't see any inherent contraindications though I might suggest use in a 5 days on, 2 days off manner for glycogen synthesis rationale amongst others (i.e. - DON'T USE ON WEEKEND CARB-UPS). Still, the choice is yours as a clinical randomized control trial did demonstrate that yohimbine does NOT influence the function of the alpha-2 adrenoreceptors ON adipocytes and does NOT influence weight loss as previously thought. Though, it still will get you amped and keep you that way - variable suggestion as to what use this would be. Could increase cortisol overall - maybe run with concurrent anti-cortisol agent?

Ok, haveta go to wally world and check the names.

I will await your return with specifics.

I was also curious about the glucophase dosing around the workout, I believe I was supposed to take it before meals, and taper down through the week. however, what do I do with the possibility of going hypo during a workout?

You should take it prior to meals as food can really hamper absorption of the K-R-ALA (or any version of ALA for that matter).

As far as going truly hypoglycemic through the workout will depend on what the constituents are of the pre-workout meal. There is a more adequate attenuation of blood sugar levels with fats pre-workout (long multiple hour continuous spike) rather than carbs (quick bimodal spike). For more, see my article in the AX Magazine. For the most p