Developing routines

[B-natural]

hmmm, I thought a muscle contracted harder in a semi stretched, to stretched position, and thats why the incline db curl has helped quite a few gain some decent size in their arms

[Paladin]

Nice post celc thanks, it's a good read.

[celc5]

Originally Posted by B-natural

hmmm, I thought a muscle contracted harder in a semi stretched, to stretched position, and thats why the incline db curl has helped quite a few gain some decent size in their arms

Paladin, Thanks for showing interest.

B, I'd say very mild semi stretched for maximum bicep contraction. But it certainly varies per each muscle, where the maximum contraction is somewhere between stretched and slack.

For example, standing curl with your elbow just SLIGHTLY behind the plain of your body would PROBABLY produce maximum biceps contraction force. Now there is a continuum (sp?) from that point. From a more slack position (concentration curl or preacher curl) to a more stretched position (incline curl).

There is a limit to the continuum to a point where the muscle becomes disadvantaged. There can be too much slack. I'd say bicep moves lose effectiveness when the elbow is above shoulder height to the front or to the side. The same is true for stretch. If you layed on your back on a flat bench and tried to curl with your arms hanging down, your elbows would come forward with any sort of appreciable weight. Hence, the muscle was overstretched to perform a forceful enough contraction to produce power, strength, or size results in that position.

What makes incline or concentration curl positions so effective, is that they are very CLOSE to optimum length. But they also provide an alternative stimulus (per slight slack or stretch) to the typical standing exercises with elbow at your side.

[B-natural]

Interesting, so then, high pulley curls are not a very good choice according to this then. I like the simulation that takes place as that is the same pose as standing double bi's....

What do you think, good/bad?

[celc5]

Originally Posted by B-natural

Interesting, so then, high pulley curls are not a very good choice according to this then. I like the simulation that takes place as that is the same pose as standing double bi's....

What do you think, good/bad?

it's not that you shouldn't ever work in a disadvantaged position. Just know that you'll definately hit waaaaay less fibers in that position. In other words, it's a bit of inefficient training and probably won't stimulate much overall growth.

On the flip side, a few typically "hard to reach" fibers may fire in your meat head cable exercise and actually force otherwise unstimulated/less stimulated areas of the muscle belly to dial in a bit

If you compete, it's imperative to choose lifts which simulate your poses for muscle control, muscle memory, and MMC. B, your cable curls are just fine, as long as they are a supplementary addition to an already complete routine.

[B-natural]

they serve their purpose in my routine, wouldn't use em otherwise, but I may switch it to side preachers, where my body is turned perpendicular with the preacher pad, rather than straight on

[celc5]

Originally Posted by B-natural

they serve their purpose in my routine, wouldn't use em otherwise, but I may switch it to side preachers, where my body is turned perpendicular with the preacher pad, rather than straight on

yup, it's a similar exercise but more effective than the high pulleys as a traditional muscle builder. It is a "slack" movement but closer to optimum length than a high pulley curl.

A fun variation would be do traditional 1 arm DB preacher followed by a slight drop in weight to superset your side preachers to "dial in" a bit of a peak.

Eventually, switch back to the high pulleys within the last 6 weeks or so of contest prep for the aforementioned reasons... MMC, etc

Awesome stuff B. Remember, these rules apply to any body part, although biceps are an easy example to illustrate the different lengths/angles.

[B-natural]

sideways scott curls, flip the bench pad!

and would this make flyes at a disadvantage?

[celc5]

Originally Posted by B-natural

sideways scott curls, flip the bench pad!

and would this make flyes at a disadvantage?

The pec is a different beast than the biceps, triceps, hams, or quads. These are 2 joint muscles where you have the ability to manipulate slack vs. stretch. Only ROM dictates slack vs. stretch in the pec.

According to my aforementioned philosophy, pec variation is more easily accomplished by varying the ANGLE at which you hit the muscle. Changes in angle address different fibers to a greater extent (note that I did not say isolate because that can't be done IMO).

The flat bench pec moves elicit the most effecient contraction. Although decline will be stronger because of should joint mechanics and the large lats playing a secondary role in this move (which is another topic).

I'm not a fan of flyes. When the elbow travels below the plane of the shoulder, there is a very fine line where the pec becomes overstretched. This puts the pec at such a disadvantage that the shoulder stabilzers must pick up the relatively enormous load when the pec surrenders. Next up for damage is rotator cuff and joint capsule/labrum.

Second reason that I'm not a fan of flyes is that it's so easy to rest at the top of the movement. Traveling with the DB's past the frontal plane of the shoulders gives the pecs a rest when you should actually be reaching a solid squeeze. CCO's keep constant tension and are a better choice IMO.

*Celc's tip for presses: warm up through full, and if pain free, exaggerated range. I'd stay as close to 90 degrees elbow and shoulder flexion as you can to avoid serious injury when piling on the weights. Pec tears and shoulder injuries occur most prevalently on an incline activity followed by flat. Least likely to occur during declines.