AI Dosing Pattern for PCT following Hdrol

[EctoPower]

Hi Doc. I have a question about ramping and/or tapering my AI during PCT. First, I’m 29, 6’ 185, 14% bf. No PH or steroid experience to date.

Second, I am building the following cycle to begin on 2/18, targeting a clean bulk of 6-8 pounds:

Hdrol 50/50/50/50

Support: hawthorn berry, milk thistle (both pre-loaded), AX Perfect Cycle (after bulk MT pre-load), Taurine (also pre-loaded), multi-v, zma

PCT: Activate Xtreme, 6-OXO, DHEA, creatine mono (4 weeks for all)

My question is, given the compound I will be using on cycle, does it make more sense to start 6-OXO at a high dose on day 1 of PCT and taper, or to start at a lower dose on day 1 and ramp up?

My confusion stems from a thread where Celc5 recapped a conversation you had with him. This exchange got me thinking:

“Celc5: Ramping your AI seemed to make sense. Initially test levels are low so there isn't much to aromatize.

Dr. Houser: Low test (with cycle suppression) --> ? need for AI when there is certainly less to aromatize at PCT's initiation.”

His example was a PCT following a Phera cycle. With Hdrol, is the opposite true because of less or possibly no suppression? In the example of my cycle it may make sense to start with a higher dose of my AI and taper because I will have the potential for aromatization immediately following my cycle. Assuming that’s true, 6-OXO could be dosed similar to this: 500mg/400mg/300mg/200mg. But I’d rather have you verify that or set me straight.

I have also seen you mention in another thread that a proper dosing pattern for Activate Xtreme in PCT is to taper it. I’m assuming that is also true in my case with Hdrol. Please tell me if you feel otherwise.

I know it’s a difficult time for you right now, and I’ve still got some time before I start my cycle. I’ll appreciate any advice you can offer. Thanks in advance! This forum is an outstanding resource, thanks to your efforts.

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by EctoPower

Hi Doc. I have a question about ramping and/or tapering my AI during PCT. First, I’m 29, 6’ 185, 14% bf. No PH or steroid experience to date.

Second, I am building the following cycle to begin on 2/18, targeting a clean bulk of 6-8 pounds:

Hdrol 50/50/50/50

Support: hawthorn berry, milk thistle (both pre-loaded), AX Perfect Cycle (after bulk MT pre-load), Taurine (also pre-loaded), multi-v, zma

PCT: Activate Xtreme, 6-OXO, DHEA, creatine mono (4 weeks for all)

First...dump the DHEA for your PCT. I know that some pretty knowledgable people recommend it, but honestly adequate survey of the literature would certainly make most think otherwise DESPITE anecdotal reports of "libido-boosting" yadda, yadda (yeah, cessation of the cycle is libido-boosting in many instances, so talk about confounders).

[Note: I don't believe I posted my issues with it on this forum yet, but it is present at both DA and my Body Blog over at bb.com for those interested.]

My question is, given the compound I will be using on cycle, does it make more sense to start 6-OXO at a high dose on day 1 of PCT and taper, or to start at a lower dose on day 1 and ramp up?

My confusion stems from a thread where Celc5 recapped a conversation you had with him. This exchange got me thinking:

“Celc5: Ramping your AI seemed to make sense. Initially test levels are low so there isn't much to aromatize.

Dr. Houser: Low test (with cycle suppression) --> ? need for AI when there is certainly less to aromatize at PCT's initiation.”

Hmmmm... how do I explain it differently?

IF you are truly suppressed post-cycle (and in many instances and despite popular belief suppression with some agents happens as early as day 2 of a cycle), then there will be little rationale to control for aromatic conversion in the immediate post-cycle realm. I do warn that many of these so-called PH/PS/DeS are very tricky to quantify and I am not about to think for a moment that they harbor some extended ester length like the compounds claimed post-conversion.

Therefore, I might say to start low with such a compound (if you are so inclined to use it; although in many instances it is rather cost prohibitive and the side to efficacy ratio is overapproximated per many user-reports)...but don't keep it low for long if the projected mechanism is as it suggests (i.e. - "suicide inhibitor"). It never has made a lot of sense to me why people suggest high-dose off the bat, but they in fact do...with little test (again, provided you are truly suffering from HPTA woes) - blocking aromatase (the enzyme that converts the test - that is suggested as low - to estrogen) just doesn't make a lot of sense.


Again...visual aid summary:

Test --aromatase--> Estrogen

If Test is low beginning of PCT and 6-oxo blocks conversion of nothing, why employ high dose out of the gates. I would probably stagger a few days of low dose and go high to get maximal cost-effciency if using this product myself.

His example was a PCT following a Phera cycle. With Hdrol, is the opposite true because of less or possibly no suppression? In the example of my cycle it may make sense to start with a higher dose of my AI and taper because I will have the potential for aromatization immediately following my cycle. Assuming that’s true, 6-OXO could be dosed similar to this: 500mg/400mg/300mg/200mg. But I’d rather have you verify that or set me straight.

I am uncertain I understand your suggestion of "higher potential for aromatization" ... halo, with its 4-chloro attachment should theoretically at least inhibit its aromatization potential. Now, again...I am uncertain I trust a lot of these so-called pro-steroids (PS) or Designer Steroids (DeS) as being labeled appropriately as we have seen so many times in the recent past and this is a VERY grey-market area, but perhaps you have read something I haven't?!?

I have also seen you mention in another thread that a proper dosing pattern for Activate Xtreme in PCT is to taper it. I’m assuming that is also true in my case with Hdrol. Please tell me if you feel otherwise.

I know it’s a difficult time for you right now, and I’ve still got some time before I start my cycle. I’ll appreciate any advice you can offer. Thanks in advance! This forum is an outstanding resource, thanks to your efforts.

Well, I am uncertain how I have suggested taper of ActivaTe Xtreme in another thread. Can you post a link so I can review the thread in context please?



D_

[SuperBig]

Thanks D_ - I think that also answered my PM I sent you about 6oxo dosing, and jives with what was posted over on bb.com.

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by SuperBig

Thanks D_ - I think that also answered my PM I sent you about 6oxo dosing, and jives with what was posted over on bb.com.

How bout that.

I had no idea I was playing double-duty here.

But really, if I happen to answer any questions in duplicate fashion I apologize; sometimes it takes me a bit to get back to all of them that I do answer (it has been backed up from last week's sister incident a bit).

I get lost as to how many come through each day (probably still about 200-400 emails per day and at least 300 PMs between all sites...very hard to get to all of them; I usually feel that threads can benefit the most people though as we see here).


D_

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

First...dump the DHEA for your PCT. I know that some pretty knowledgable people recommend it, but honestly adequate survey of the literature would certainly make most think otherwise DESPITE anecdotal reports of "libido-boosting" yadda, yadda (yeah, cessation of the cycle is libido-boosting in many instances, so talk about confounders).

[Note: I don't believe I posted my issues with it on this forum yet, but it is present at both DA and my Body Blog over at bb.com for those interested.]





Hmmmm... how do I explain it differently?

IF you are truly suppressed post-cycle (and in many instances and despite popular belief suppression with some agents happens as early as day 2 of a cycle), then there will be little rationale to control for aromatic conversion in the immediate post-cycle realm. I do warn that many of these so-called PH/PS/DeS are very tricky to quantify and I am not about to think for a moment that they harbor some extended ester length like the compounds claimed post-conversion.

Therefore, I might say to start low with such a compound (if you are so inclined to use it; although in many instances it is rather cost prohibitive and the side to efficacy ratio is overapproximated per many user-reports)...but don't keep it low for long if the projected mechanism is as it suggests (i.e. - "suicide inhibitor"). It never has made a lot of sense to me why people suggest high-dose off the bat, but they in fact do...with little test (again, provided you are truly suffering from HPTA woes) - blocking aromatase (the enzyme that converts the test - that is suggested as low - to estrogen) just doesn't make a lot of sense.


Again...visual aid summary:

Test --aromatase--> Estrogen

If Test is low beginning of PCT and 6-oxo blocks conversion of nothing, why employ high dose out of the gates. I would probably stagger a few days of low dose and go high to get maximal cost-effciency if using this product myself.






I am uncertain I understand your suggestion of "higher potential for aromatization" ... halo, with its 4-chloro attachment should theoretically at least inhibit its aromatization potential. Now, again...I am uncertain I trust a lot of these so-called pro-steroids (PS) or Designer Steroids (DeS) as being labeled appropriately as we have seen so many times in the recent past and this is a VERY grey-market area, but perhaps you have read something I haven't?!?






Well, I am uncertain how I have suggested taper of ActivaTe Xtreme in another thread. Can you post a link so I can review the thread in context please?



D_

Thanks so much for the quick reply Doc. Let me try to walk back through this.

On the DHEA, I opted for it because it's more cost effective and I had not seen any real reason to avoid it. Mostly people just said they didn't want to use anything that could potentially convert to estrogen. I will read what you have at DA and make a more informed decision. If need be, I'll address the issue in a seperate thread.

If I'm properly summarizing your take on dosing my AI, you're saying to start low and ramp if I have HPTA suppression. I understand this, however the question for me is going to be whether or not Hdrol suppresses me. Either way, your comment to ramp up quickly is the clincher for me because even if I have ample test to convert (that is, little or no HPTA suppression), I'll ramp quickly enough to take care of it in short order. And if I am supressed to a greater extent, then starting high wouldn't make any sense to begin with.

When I said that I might have higher potential for aromatization, I was referring to potentially not having HPTA supression, not to Hdrol aromatizing. Sorry for the confusion. My point was that I'm expecting very little suppression with Hdrol, but as I stated before I'll still plan to start my AI low and ramp quickly.

As for tapering Activate X, it seems I misspoke. Your comments were in this thread:

http://www.leanbulk.com/forum/showth...00/index3.html

And you actually say this:

"Nonetheless, I am actually of the camp that thinks Divanil can be used when your PCT ensues rather than offering any lags. I have not had a lot of experience with clients increasing their doses as the weeks of PCT progress, but I do not see why this doesn't at least make theoretic sense."

Don't know where I got "taper" out of that. I'll flog myself later...

Soooo, I'll read up on your DHEA comments on DA, but I think you've answered my AI questions, unless you want to add more. Thanks again for your help D!

[celc5]

Ecto, you're going to have some suppression to an extent with any prohormone or designer, even with halo. The reason why so many people like halo is that it's unlikely for you to completely shut down natural hormonal production, making for a smoother recovery.

This is obviously second hand info, but I've seen some bloodwork where natural test production starts to drop around the second week with halo. From personal experience, I'd find it unlikely that you will decrease natural production to the point that you will have any testicular atrophy.

Regarding the AI's, there is controversy with all of them. Similarly, post cycle strategies vary, especially with AI's depending on the compound and individual preference. As you develop your own personal strategies, be sure that dinoiii's suggestions are a heavy influence.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by celc5

Ecto, you're going to have some suppression to an extent with any prohormone or designer, even with halo. The reason why so many people like halo is that it's unlikely for you to completely shut down natural hormonal production, making for a smoother recovery.

This is obviously second hand info, but I've seen some bloodwork where natural test production starts to drop around the second week with halo. From personal experience, I'd find it unlikely that you will decrease natural production to the point that you will have any testicular atrophy.

Regarding the AI's, there is controversy with all of them. Similarly, post cycle strategies vary, especially with AI's depending on the compound and individual preference. As you develop your own personal strategies, be sure that dinoiii's suggestions are a heavy influence.

Thanks Celc. Thanks to D, I think I've got a better idea of how to set up my PCT, specifically the AI. Gonna read up on DHEA and see what I want to do with that.