People overdosing tamoxifen citrate?

[drksun]

I read on AM that dr. houser said for pct with tamoixifen citrate only doses of 20mg are needed, 20/20/20/20. Does anyone have a link to the thread explaining this? I have done some searching but iv'e came up short. I'm more interested in it's neuroendrocine effects and how it supports the release of LH.


check this out, pretty cool that some research is being done with SERMs and men

Effects of raloxifene on gonadotrophins, sex hormones, bone turnover and lipids in healthy elderly men.
Duschek EJ, Gooren LJ, Netelenbos C.

Department of Endocrinology, VU University Medical Centre, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. e.duschek@vumc.nl

OBJECTIVE: To explore effects on serum lipids, pituitary-gonadal axis, prostate and bone turnover of the administration of the mixed oestrogen agonist/antagonist raloxifene in healthy elderly men. PARTICIPANTS: Thirty healthy men aged 60-70 years randomly received raloxifene 120 mg/day (n=15) or placebo (n=15) for 3 months. MEASUREMENTS: In this double-blind, placebo-controlled study, serum gonadotrophins, sex hormones, prostate specific antigen (PSA), a marker of bone turnover, urinary hydroxyproline (OHPro) and cholesterol were measured at baseline and after 3 months. RESULTS: Raloxifene significantly increased serum concentrations of LH and FSH (by 29% and 21%), total testosterone (20%), free testosterone (16%) and bioavailable testosterone (not bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG; 20%). In parallel with testosterone, 17 beta-oestradiol also increased by 21%. SHBG increased by 7%. Total cholesterol (TChol) decreased significantly, from 5.7 to 5.5 mmol/l (P=0.03). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-c) and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-c) showed a trend to decrease. Overall, there was no change in urinary OHPro/creatinine ratio as a marker for bone resorption. However, the raloxifene-induced increases in both serum testosterone and 17 beta-oestradiol were significantly related to a lower OHPro/creatinine ratio. Total PSA increased by 17% without significant changes in free PSA or free/total PSA ratio. Participants reported no side effects and raloxifene was well tolerated. CONCLUSION: In healthy elderly man, raloxifene 120 mg/day for 3 months increased LH, FSH and sex steroid hormones. Potentially beneficial effects were the small but significant decrease in TChol and the trend towards a decrease in LDL-c. Negative effects were the trend towards a decrease in HDL-c and the significant increase in serum PSA. A decrease in markers of bone resorption during raloxifene treatment was found only in men with relatively high increases in serum testosterone and 17 beta-oestradiol. Overall, there were no clear beneficial effects of administration of raloxifene to ageing men in this preliminary investigation.

PMID: 15080785 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This is also very interesting, i'm assuming once the HPTA is already suppressed, tamoxifen works differently, also the fact that this study was done on rats.

Effect of intermittent treatment with tamoxifen on reproduction in male rats.
Gill-Sharma MK, Balasinor N, Parte P.

Department of Neuroendocrinology, Institute for Research in Reproduction, ICMR, Parel, Mumbai, India. dirirr@vsnl.com

AIM: To identify the antifertility effect of intermittent oral administration of tamoxifen in male rat. METHODS: Tamoxifen was administered orally at a dose of 0.4 mg x kg(-1) x d(-1) with an intermittent regime for 120 days. Treated and control rats were mated with cycling female rats on days 60, 90 and 120 of treatment. The mated males were sacrificed and the weights of reproductive organs were recorded, and the serum levels of LH, FSH, testosterone and estradiol estimated by radioimmunoassay. In the female rats, the numbers of implantation sites, corpora lutea, and numbers of normal and resorbed foetuses were recorded on d 21 of gestation. The potency, fecundity, fertility index, litter size and post-implantation loss were then calculated. RESULTS: The fecundity of male rats was completely suppressed by tamoxifen while the potency was maintained at the control level. The fertility index was significantly decreased. No viable litters were sired. Post implantation loss, indicative of non-viable embryos, was observed but was not significantly increased above the control level. The weights of the testes, epididymides, ventral prostate and seminal vesicles were significantly reduced. The blood LH and testosterone levels were significantly decreased, but not FSH and estradiol. CONCLUSION: Intermittent oral tamoxifen administration completely suppressed the fecundity of adult male rats with reserved potency.

PMID: 11404795 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Click here to read

[kruz]

Bone turnover? lol Once every morning and again when my wife gets home!

Sorry couldn't resist!

[drksun]

i just received my tamoxifen citrate today, it seems that its falling out of solution (20mg/ml) i see specks in it, when i shake it it gets worse, i might try putting it in a warm water bath, seems like they used alcohol has a solvent so heating is out of the question.

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by drksun

I read on AM that dr. houser said for pct with tamoixifen citrate only doses of 20mg are needed, 20/20/20/20. Does anyone have a link to the thread explaining this? I have done some searching but iv'e came up short. I'm more interested in it's neuroendrocine effects and how it supports the release of LH.

Rarely is it accurate to suggest a dose greater than 20mg needed at all. The masses who suggest 20mg are merely offering pictorial representation of the domino subset I coined in PCT: ACV Part I. 40mg, et al is quite asinine and shows nothing more than people who have done zero clinical estimates and have no business recommending anything, as should be the case anyway on a therapeutic basis.

As for its effects, I don't even usually recommend a strict 20 x protocol IF I offer positives in SERMs to be had at all, but a reverse ramp protocol. In other words - decreasing SERM dose, increasing AI.

I further suggest that use of a SERM in such manner is also sure-fire ways to the post-cycle crash quoted by so many "gurus." In other words, a conglomerate of decreasing GH and subsequently IGF-1 values, PRO-estrogenic offering at the level of MUSCLE tissue, etc... This is a sure-fire catastrophe for maintenance of gains, and here we thought it was absence of SERMs that did this...unfortunately, this is hardly the case.

Furthermore, there are NO HPTA upregulation effects with SERMs in the prototypical class (i.e. - Tamox, Ralox, Torem) despite massive confusion and suggestion of the contrary. Clomid DOES possess some level here and remains the best agent of use IF any at all are to be had.



D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by kruz

Bone turnover? lol Once every morning and again when my wife gets home!

Sorry couldn't resist!

While this is mildly entertaining for sure,

"bone turnover" reflects a constant battle (going on as I type this and you read it actually) being waged within bone tissues between something known as:

osteoBlasts: Build bone

-and-

osteoClasts: Catabolize bone

The only time bone turnover proves "anabolic" is when osteoBlasts outfight osteoClasts. Its one of those schnazzy "homeostasis" offerings where catabolic and anabolic processes are in constant flux.


D_

[THEHUGE]

so you don't advice for a serm protocol for pct usually? just an AI ramped up?

[LLLLern]

Q

would you suggest after a SD cycle ( example) to use 40mg clomid and 20 mg of nolva for 30 day?

[xOcular Penetratahx]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Clomid DOES possess some level here and remains the best agent of use IF any at all are to be had.

D_

What would be your typical recommendation for Clomid in PCT, say for SuperDrol?

[BBD]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Furthermore, there are NO HPTA upregulation effects with SERMs in the prototypical class (i.e. - Tamox, Ralox, Torem) despite massive confusion and suggestion of the contrary. Clomid DOES possess some level here and remains the best agent of use IF any at all are to be had.
D_

Could you talk about this a bit more? I thought nolva would help to get the natural test production going based on the writting on nolva of Big Cat and William Llewelln, which both bring up this paper:

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in...[Fertil Steril. 1978] - PubMed Result

[usf97j4x4]

For a harsher cycle I usually will use Nolva 20/20/10/10 (dosed before bed) and a 3 week burst of Clomid at probably 50/25/25 (does in the AM)... not sure if its right but it usually seems to work well for me.