13C and Nettle Root Questions

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

...The conversion limiting factors, I will define in the article out in less than a month (so I ask that we hold off on that, but I am hoping your conscience will rest to some degree in the mean time)....

Are you referring to next months CU issue??

I did an internet search on DIM/I3C for clinical studies and found a few that "bashed" I3C and praised DIM. The one site I found, is for an MD selling his book (though he sites clinical references). I also noticed that most rats were given 10mg-20mg/kg. I'm 225lbs (102kg) so that means I would have to dose 1-2grams to get the results of the study.
Maybe that's why they use rats.
http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

[Hacksaw]

5'9'',195lbs.,8%BF
Age,Older than dirt!
Back lifting for two years after being off for two years from a motorcycle wreck.
1,4AD and Supperdrol pre ban.
Diet,carbs 250g,ramping up as needed(comming off a cut),protien 400g,fat 80-100g with most from extra virgin olive oil,9g Omega-3 fish oil.
Low G.I. carbs(exept post workout),a lot of fish,chicken,egg whites(2 whole eggs morning and night),some lean beef and whey.
Protien will be taken every two hours from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. Whey will be every other meal and once durring the night.

I don't smoke,drink,or use any drugs.

I'll be hitting all muscles twice every 8 days. I use moderate volume and high intensity.

[Hacksaw]

I also had recent blood work done. Prostate,liver,thyroid,cholesterol etc. are perfect. Total test was 540,BP 118/65, Pulse 56. I was off all supps for a week prior to blood work.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

As far as sinner's comments about I3C being anti-androgenic. First, MANY OTC supplements (6-oxo and ATD included) harbor anti-androgenic effects, but they are inherently different. The difference between those OTC touted AIs is that they also harbor PRO-estrogenic effects, I3C does NOT!!! I3C seconds as an estrogen-channeling agent and has a LOT of support.

I guess I was speaking a little out of spite with that comment. You see, there's a PCT supplement under wraps that will hopefully hit the market later this year (or early next), and I3C just got cut from the formula due to cost and lack of research supporting it.

The things I3C can do to estrogen kick ass; however, it is also a strong AR antagonist, which has made it of great interest for treatment of prostate cancer. There's also some research showing that I3C significantly decreases serum testosterone levels. I had a small discussion with Patrick Arnold about this, in case he knew something I didn't, and we both agreed that there is not enough data available to determine whether or not this decrease in serum testosterone is significant to hindering gains. (i.e. there's no data showing the anti-androgenic effects to be selective to prostate tissue).

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by GotTest

Are you referring to next months CU issue??

I did an internet search on DIM/I3C for clinical studies and found a few that "bashed" I3C and praised DIM. The one site I found, is for an MD selling his book (though he sites clinical references). I also noticed that most rats were given 10mg-20mg/kg. I'm 225lbs (102kg) so that means I would have to dose 1-2grams to get the results of the study.
Maybe that's why they use rats.
http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

Just my opinion, but I3C is better than DIM.

1) DIM is just one metabolite of IC3
2) I3C has more research supporting it
3) I3C has many other beneficial metabolites.
4) I3C has a greater oral bioavailability.

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I guess I was speaking a little out of spite with that comment. You see, there's a PCT supplement under wraps that will hopefully hit the market later this year (or early next), and I3C just got cut from the formula due to cost and lack of research supporting it.

The things I3C can do to estrogen kick ass; however, it is also a strong AR antagonist, which has made it of great interest for treatment of prostate cancer. There's also some research showing that I3C significantly decreases serum testosterone levels. I had a small discussion with Patrick Arnold about this, in case he knew something I didn't, and we both agreed that there is not enough data available to determine whether or not this decrease in serum testosterone is significant to hindering gains. (i.e. there's no data showing the anti-androgenic effects to be selective to prostate tissue).

Well, 200+ studies as far as research into I3C likely support it better than many, if not all on the market to date, so I find the "lack of research" comment interesting (> 200 studies - watch next month's ID magazine for my interpretation of many things that would knock the socks off most not going through the proper avenues to attain research - read: not a little pub med search as many things in botanical literature are a bit more complex than that).

PA has made some interesting comments lately making me question anything he puts out. Resveratrol would be MORE SUSPECT actually and that made the 6-oxo extreme formula. I yawn at his current suggestions and find them appauling in that they merely are to disuade use of things non-Ergo!

He also doesn't care for 6-Bromo, but I know you support that to some level, so I would question why the selective support?



Aside: I did get your PM. I am curious of your affiliation before I answer that if you don't mind (you can re-PM it if not comfortable on the forum, I just happened to be looking at this post and it saves time on my end to get points out).



D_

[thesinner]

Originally, PA was skeptical about 6-bromo, but he was also convinced it was 6-alpha-bromoandrostenedione and was cross-referencing this with 6a-chlorotestosterone. I think his suggestions/posts are used in attempt to scare data out of people. I was under the impression he's taken back those statements.

Regardless, I respect his opinion of things. He's a lot more accomplished and knowledgable than myself.

By lack of research, you have to understand that people would most definitely trash talk the product pulling up one of the studies that have shown to lower serum testosterone in rats. Regardless of how significant that may be, it's gonna kill sales unless I'm able to say something about it, and I haven't been able to find enough info (and niether has PA, whom I had asked) to rebuttle such a comment. So, to reword it, there's not enough research to provide me an out when the naysayers speak up.

Also, PM sent.

[swolloniron]

hmmm.....i like this tread....

[B-natural]

It developed more than I remember, good stuff

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by thesinner

Originally, PA was skeptical about 6-bromo, but he was also convinced it was 6-alpha-bromoandrostenedione and was cross-referencing this with 6a-chlorotestosterone. I think his suggestions/posts are used in attempt to scare data out of people. I was under the impression he's taken back those statements.

Regardless, I respect his opinion of things. He's a lot more accomplished and knowledgable than myself.

By lack of research, you have to understand that people would most definitely trash talk the product pulling up one of the studies that have shown to lower serum testosterone in rats. Regardless of how significant that may be, it's gonna kill sales unless I'm able to say something about it, and I haven't been able to find enough info (and niether has PA, whom I had asked) to rebuttle such a comment. So, to reword it, there's not enough research to provide me an out when the naysayers speak up.

Also, PM sent.

There is FAR MORE research on I3C than 6-Bromo, 6-oxo, ATD, and Form combined! But alas I digress...

All of those said agents possess some level of anti-androgenicity as I have discussed by different mechanisms (maybe not so much 6-oxo and 6-bromo which is merely a substitution difference so it likely make some sense).

I3C has been shown to INCREASE Testosterone in HUMANS. We are long overdue to full-out review this item.

I'm am trying to hone in on what the discrepency is that exists. Please post the study you are referencing and we'll likely exploit a couple of issues on the funding side which I have been over on DA, but no reason that discussion shouldn't move over here.


D_