Is torem as "liver friendly" as we assume?

[celc5]

I got a slot with doc on Monday to discuss some cycle specific ideas regarding pheraplex and toremifine. In an effort to be slightly less oblivious regarding the serm, I made a quick stop at http://www.fareston.com/b_about/b3.html

Here is a quick excerpt from the page:

During FARESTON® clinical trials involving 1157 patients treated with FARESTON® or tamoxifen, there was a low incidence of serious side effects, including cardiac events (2.03% vs 2.42%), stroke (3.21% vs 3.28%), and elevated standard liver tests (26.2% vs 23.7%), respectively.

I was always under the impression that torem was LESS liver toxic than Nolva according to chatter on the boards.

[celc5]

More random findings:

http://www.drugs.com/pro/fareston.html

Fareston (toremifene citrate) Tablets for oral administration each contain 88.5mg of toremifene citrate, which is equivalent to 60 mg toremifene.

Toremifene binds to estrogen receptors and may exert estrogenic, antiestrogenic, or both activities, depending upon the duration of treatment, animal species, gender, target organ, or endpoint selected. In general, however, nonsteroidal triphenylethylene derivatives are predominantly antiestrogenic in rats and humans and estrogenic in mice

Toremifene also has estrogenic activity as shown by decreases in serum gonadotropin concentrations (FSH and LH). ...Eck!!!

The plasma concentration time profile of toremifene declines biexponentially after absorption with a mean distribution half-life of about 4 hours and an elimination half-life of about 5 days.

Toremifene is well absorbed after oral administration and absorption is not influenced by food. Peak plasma concentrations are obtained within 3 hours.

Other tidbits:
-Hypercalcemia was mentioned several times but in regards to tumor flare-up. I'm not sure if this applies when used in post cycle time frame.
-There was also mention of no significant increase in effectiveness of 60mg dosages vs. 200 or 240. Although, I didn't understand the study or the chart that ensued. Dosing protocol is of PRIMARY concern to me.

[dinoiii]

You guys and your SERMs...

Never let your sole research come from "guys on the boards."

Originally Posted by celc5

Toremifene binds to estrogen receptors and may exert estrogenic, antiestrogenic, or both activities, depending upon the duration of treatment, animal species, gender, target organ, or endpoint selected. In general, however, nonsteroidal triphenylethylene derivatives are predominantly antiestrogenic in rats and humans and estrogenic in mice.

This is very much so tissue specific as evidenced by estrogen receptor density. We can talk about this if you want on Monday.

Toremifene also has estrogenic activity as shown by decreases in serum gonadotropin concentrations (FSH and LH). ...Eck!!!

Yup, this is actually the least likely to provide adequate HPTA recovery as I have stressed on DA. People called my bluff - ahhh well, at some point in an ideal world maybe, just maybe....


ahhh nevermind.

The plasma concentration time profile of toremifene declines biexponentially after absorption with a mean distribution half-life of about 4 hours and an elimination half-life of about 5 days.

We'll also talk about this on Monday.

-Hypercalcemia was mentioned several times but in regards to tumor flare-up. I'm not sure if this applies when used in post cycle time frame.

Not to worry about this per se. This is in reference to what are known as perineoplastic syndromes...in cancer patients - breast or otherwise.

-There was also mention of no significant increase in effectiveness of 60mg dosages vs. 200 or 240. Although, I didn't understand the study or the chart that ensued. Dosing protocol is of PRIMARY concern to me.

If you want me to go over a chart, please send it to my PM before Monday. Thanks.



D_

[celc5]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

You guys and your SERMs...
Never let your sole research come from "guys on the boards."

...Yup, this is actually the least likely to provide adequate HPTA recovery as I have stressed on DA. People called my bluff - ahhh well, at some point in an ideal world maybe, just maybe....

D_

Doc, I definately agree. RA called it "bro science" last time he and I discussed this.

I'm just wondering IF the serm is actually what we should be choosing to recover the HPTA as you mentioned in your reply. Then IF the serm is the appropriate choice, I'd rather have good logic behind my dosing rather than RA's buddies selling me more "bro science" protocols. (just to clarify, I'm making fun of RA right here and he is on the same page with questioning protocols)

On the other hand, IF the serm is what's best available to recover HPTA, then I want to get it right.

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by celc5

I got a slot with doc on Monday to discuss some cycle specific ideas regarding pheraplex and toremifine...

Make sure you share the knowledge.

[growstrong]

bringing this thread back to life... what did you figure out celc5?

[xjsynx]

Yeah would be nice to share your bro-science, especially since I am taking Torem now.

[celc5]

Concerning toxicity, there's not much evidence to support that serms CAUSE liver toxicity in a short term dosing scheme. Most of the studies are, obviously, for longer term dosing for breast cancer patients, which do show varying levels of toxicity.

Anecdotally, I ran torem 60/45/30/15 with a moderate dose of formestane for a phera post cycle plan. I had minimal, yet noticable, testicular atrophy. Testicular mass returned within 8-10 days. I just finished post cycle therapy, but haven't had bloodwork. I would really like to get a complete hormonal panel done within the next few weeks to be sure I'm completely ready before I run another cycle.

[growstrong]

Originally Posted by celc5

Concerning toxicity, there's not much evidence to support that serms CAUSE liver toxicity in a short term dosing scheme. Most of the studies are, obviously, for longer term dosing for breast cancer patients, which do show varying levels of toxicity.

Anecdotally, I ran torem 60/45/30/15 with a moderate dose of formestane for a phera post cycle plan. I had minimal, yet noticable, testicular atrophy. Testicular mass returned within 8-10 days. I just finished post cycle therapy, but haven't had bloodwork. I would really like to get a complete hormonal panel done within the next few weeks to be sure I'm completely ready before I run another cycle.

Nice.. thanks celc5 really appreciate the info.. i am prolly going to run this SERM for my PCT of an upcoming PH Stack!