Nolva, Clomid, or BOTH?… What’s your preference?

[growstrong]

What do you guys use and why?

[snakemw]

I have only ran one Cycle of PH's but i didnt use a SERM during PCT, and everything turned out great. I dont think they are always needed. Some people like to have them on hand in case they need them though.

[ENIGMA]

I like using both nolva and clomid. I have found that I bounce back and keep more of my gains.

[EYAYO]

Originally Posted by snakemw

I have only ran one Cycle of PH's but i didnt use a SERM during PCT, and everything turned out great. I dont think they are always needed. Some people like to have them on hand in case they need them though.

yup, thats how i feel

[ENIGMA]

Trust me, it will only take one bad experience when you guys run a shotty pct or none at all, and you will understand the importance of using one EVERY time.

[dinoiii]

There is NO one-size-fits ALL protocol!!!


That said, if I am to employ any type of anti-estrogenic, it would be Clomid.


As for Nolva, reasons NOT to make this your first choice:

(1) Decreases plasma levels of IGF-1 (this is really a pro-estrogenic effect as estrogen renders the liver less sensitive to GH - by decreasing density of liver GH receptors

(2) Pro-estrogenic at the level of the muscle tissue (concomitantly with #1, this is a horrendous 1-2 punch for any muscle gain).

(3) Acts as a signal to protect muscles (kind of like an anti-oxidant)...would be good as suggested in ANY group outside of bodybuilders and namely around a workout period due to cytokine employment being attenuated.



Not to mention all the erroneous dosing parameters suggested by the masses and the internet "gurus" that suggest Nolvadex + DHEA is a good idea (when DHEA completely wipes out Nolvadex's actions anyway!).



With some of the multi-million dollar regimes emeshed in people's apparent budget, invest in some A-zole or Letrozole or even OTCs, but really focus on the AI, couple this with an estrogen-modifying agent like I3C .... NO NOT DIM (which has virtual crappy bioavailability when financially invested groups aren't involved in the research!!!).


And for more reality, continue to watch PCT:ACV subforum above!!!



D_

[ENIGMA]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

There is NO one-size-fits ALL protocol!!!


That said, if I am to employ any type of anti-estrogenic, it would be Clomid.


As for Nolva, reasons NOT to make this your first choice:

(1) Decreases plasma levels of IGF-1 (this is really a pro-estrogenic effect as estrogen renders the liver less sensitive to GH - by decreasing density of liver GH receptors

(2) Pro-estrogenic at the level of the muscle tissue (concomitantly with #1, this is a horrendous 1-2 punch for any muscle gain).

(3) Acts as a signal to protect muscles (kind of like an anti-oxidant)...would be good as suggested in ANY group outside of bodybuilders and namely around a workout period due to cytokine employment being attenuated.



Not to mention all the erroneous dosing parameters suggested by the masses and the internet "gurus" that suggest Nolvadex + DHEA is a good idea (when DHEA completely wipes out Nolvadex's actions anyway!).



With some of the multi-million dollar regimes emeshed in people's apparent budget, invest in some A-zole or Letrozole or even OTCs, but really focus on the AI, couple this with an estrogen-modifying agent like I3C .... NO NOT DIM (which has virtual crappy bioavailability when financially invested groups aren't involved in the research!!!).


And for more reality, continue to watch PCT:ACV subforum above!!!



D_

Wow, thats the first time I have heard someone say to stear away from nolva during pct. I have always used it, simply because thats what seemed proven among other athletes. The past two pcts I have ran I used both nolva and clomid and bounced back really good. I have never used toremifine which is becoming popular also. What are your thoughts on torem. D? What about a clomid/torem pct? The only thing I hate about clomid is the noticable sides I have(acne, lethargic, etc) but its better than being shutdown for 2 months by far.

[dinoiii]

What's up Enigma?


Well Ralox. is actually the "best" - likely most efficacious of the SERM class. And this may be the one I would suggest for someone out of the three due to suspect issues with the HPTA and torem. use.

I have only had 2 patients unto which we have even suggested hCG therapy to at this point and it has been quite a bit. Some use all of these things prophylactically and to me this is nonsense. There was actually a time when people didn't know what the heck a PCT was, let alone a quoted "success."

But, that's what I think I am getting at most of all ... the things I would chose are usually based on lab studies rather than simple guesswork, so I may have an unfair advantage much of the time.

Some Clomid Notes: Uncomfortable levels of lethargy don't tend to be reported by my PCTers...perhaps due to the concurrent runs I have them do with SAMe?!? Acne is usually fault of endogenous androgen return rather than the actual clomid...I would say this is a welcomed "side."

I think people are using more than they need to sometimes but still shy away from the better efficacious products because of it. To me...the more potent ones are usually better: Ralox (if you are going to go this route), Clomid, and various AIs (arimidex, et al), sometimes hCG are moreso what I would usually base pharmaceutic PCTs on. Sometimes people complain of the expense with some of these agents...yet, the last thing I am concerned with is $$$ when my health is being considered.

I am a big proponent of having some I3C around as well for a non-pharmacologic secondary, more an estrogen-channeling agent too which may be contribution to the success of people that run PCTs for me.


Bare Bones PCT:
AI (pharma > supplemental, though there are PH/PS/DeS cycles that are rather mild and you could likely get away with your 6-Bromo and/or ATD and/or 6-oxo)
I3C (and I mean a real dose: > 400mg; for some bodyweights up to 1200mg)
SAMe (again: doses will vary with the I3C 400mg-1200mg...people tend to not be able to afford high-dose SAMe many times though...in which case 400mg from a baseline of zero will still offer "result" in the realms of heaptic/joint/mood care)



I think many people without experience in both PH/PS/DeS and true 1990 -classified schedule III AAS will favor the OTCs and I am actually ok with this often dependent upon duration, agent used, et al.

People with solely AAS use are more prone to using a lot of the pharmaceutical agents - many times overkill. Nolva/Clomid together - why, rather than employ a different MOA like a solid AI?


D_

[lionelxxl]

D and others, just wondering where you'd fit formestane into the equation.

Pharm (nolva/torem/ralox) > supplemental (ATD/6 Bromo)
Strong <-------------------------weak

Where would form fit in and i suppose only a mild cycle right?

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by lionelxxl

D and others, just wondering where you'd fit formestane into the equation.

Pharm (nolva/torem/ralox) > supplemental (ATD/6 Bromo)
Strong <-------------------------weak

Where would form fit in and i suppose only a mild cycle right?

The supplemental AIs (namely Form and 6-Bromo) are going to be widely discussed in the next two issues of the CU. So...I am going to deflect your question until August 10th or else, my newsletter would loose value.

One thing I did want to correct is that my suggestion was NOT that

Pharm SERMs > Supplemental AIs ...that's NOT a clean translation.


I was more suggestive of Pharm AIs (A-Dex, et al) > Supplemental AIs (6-Bromo, ATD). Interestingly enough Form is kind of both (pharm an