Gyno for 3 months, now what?

[Cerberus]

Here is my history: (I posted this on another forum before, but I didn't get much advice. So I'm reaching out to the LB members)

December of 07, I started my second Havoc cycle: Began December 23rd, ended Jan 26th.

Week 1: 10,10,10,20,20,20,20
Week 2: 20
Week 3: 30
Week 4: 40
Week 5: 50

PCT: Fareston (Torem)
Week 1: 120,120,120,90,90,90,90
Week 2: 60
Week 3: 60
Week 4: 30

1 week before Havoc cycle, I preloaded Liver products (Liv 52, and Pro Liver). CoQ10, Garlic, Fish Oil, Multi, Taurine, etc were all taken during all phases of this.

Ending results: Great strength gain, good muscle gain, 1 side, back pain the last week of the havoc cycle. Zero gyno.

March 9th, started 11-oxo.

Same preventative supplements were taken (CoQ10, Fish Oil, etc ...)

Week 1: 6 caps
Week 2: 6 caps
Week 3: 6 caps
Week 4: 6 caps

This was taken during a hypocaloric enviroment. Was on a carb cycling diet that went very well. Dropped about 20lbs from Jan 27th to April 5th.

PCT: 6-bromo FIRST, then switched to Fareston (Torem) since I didn't have have 6-oxo extreme or 6-oxo. I did NOT start this until 5 days after 11-oxo cycle. I know this wasn't the smartest, but it is what it is. I simply didn't start right away because I didn't feel **** from this product. No hardness, no extra leaning out help, etc. I think the diet did this.

Started this on the 10th of April. Again, stopped 11-oxo on the 5th of April.
Week 1: 6-bromo - 80mg, 80mg, 80mg, 80mg (stopped, too much acne gained), began Fareston (torem) @ 90,90,90
Week 2: 60
Week 3: 60
Week 4: Went to doctor about lump underneath left nipple.

Gyno it seemed to develop during Week 1 - Day 2 (April 11th). Continued with the PCT above. Nothing seemed to help, lower the size of the gyno.

************************************************** *******

So, the doctor said it was gyno after the tests. She didn't say much about it.

So, I'm looking for some help. Besides the consideration of surgery, I wouldn't mind some holistic ideas/methodics to attempt to battle this before I take the surgery route. All suggestions welcome and appreciative.

There is no pain, only when I put a lot of pressure on it. It is about 3/5th dime size right under my left nipple.

Thank you.

[Right Hook]

Weird kinda. You have a few options. Run an AI will likely be most recommended (I realize bromo is an AI but perhaps its your problem - rebound issue maybe since you stopped cold turkey).

Perhaps your Torem was bunk? Just a thought...

[Gixxer82]

Originally Posted by Travis

Weird kinda. You have a few options. Run an AI will likely be most recommended (I realize bromo is an AI but perhaps its your problem - rebound issue maybe since you stopped cold turkey).

Perhaps your Torem was bunk? Just a thought...

or he could run a REAL AI like adex or letro.

[NateW]

Ive had gyno from puberty.. my solution is gonna be taking a trip to New York to see Dr. Blau.

[Right Hook]

Originally Posted by Gixxer82

or he could run a REAL AI like adex or letro.

Thats actually what I am hinting at here.... Btw, 6-bromo is a real AI.

[Right Hook]

I would also say your best bet is probably surgery. But if you want to try other things here is a post by jakeshorts on another board:

QUOTE
Dtsch Med Wochenschr. 1984 Nov 2;109 (44):1678-82 6489180 (P,S,E,cool.gif [Testosterone and estradiol levels in male gynecomastia. Clinical and endocrine findings during treatment with tamoxifen]

[My paper] T Eversmann, J Moito, K von Werder
Oestradiol-(E2) levels in serum were significantly higher in a group of 91 males with gynaecomastia than in a control group. The levels were highest in patients with testicular tumour, hyperprolactinaemia and idiopathic gynaecomastia. In gynaecomastia of puberty and primary or secondary hypogonadism, the E2 level was within normal limits, but the testosterone/oestradiol ratio was significantly reduced. Tamoxifen, at a daily dose of 20 mg, was administered over 2-4 months to 16 patients with gynaecomastia. Of twelve patients with painful gynaecomastia ten became painfree. Gynaecomastia regressed partially or completely in 14 patients, in only 2 was it unchanged. There was no recurrence of gynaecomastia after discontinuing tamoxifen. Side-effects did not occur. It is concluded that tamoxifen is a promising alternative to the surgical treatment of gynaecomastia.


QUOTE
Monatsschr Kinderheilkd. 1984 Jan ;132 (1):32-7 6700600 (P,S,E,cool.gif [Excessive gynecomastia in boys. Effective medical treatment using danazol (Winobanin)]

[My paper] W Beck, P Stubbe
The purpose of this study was to provide a medical alternative to mastectomy in boys with excessive breast development. Eleven boys with bilateral gynecomastia, ranging in size between 9 X 7 cm and 3 X 3 cm in diameter, were treated with 200 mg of Danazol daily for 6 months. This therapy led to a reduction in breast size between 3 X 3 cm and 1,5 X 1,5 cm. The antigonadotropic action of Danazol was documented by inhibition of basal gonadotropin secretion, by disappearance of normal sleep dependent rhythms and by a reduced pituitary response to stimulation. Simultaneously, plasma testosteron secretion was suppressed without reduction of testicular volumes. In all patients the hypothalamo-pituitary gonadal axis normalized within 67 months after termination of therapy and no relapse was observed over a control period up to 26 months. The continuing regression after Danazol treatment emphasizes the effectiveness of drug therapy as an alternative regimen to surgical intervention.


QUOTE
J Pediatr. 2004 Jul ;145 (1):71-6 15238910 (P,S,E,B,D) Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.

[My paper] Sarah E Lawrence, K Arnold Faught, Jennifer Vethamuthu, Margaret L Lawson
OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifen in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia. STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene). RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients. CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.


QUOTE
Horm Res. 2004 ;62 (3):113-8 15273427 (P,S,E,cool.gif Treatment of pubertal gynecomastia with the specific aromatase inhibitor anastrozole.

[My paper] Felix G Riepe, Inka Baus, Stephanie Wiest, Nils Krone, Wolfgang G Sippell, Carl-Joachim Partsch
Division of Pediatric Endocrinology, Department of Paediatrics, Christian-Albrechts-Universität Kiel, Kiel, Germany.
Gynecomastia can be detected in up to 70% of boys during puberty and in about one third of adult males. An imbalance of estrogen to androgen tissue levels is believed to be the major reason for the development of gynecomastia; as a result most medical treatments so far have tried to lower the estrogen level. Five boys with pubertal gynecomastia and breast tenderness were treated for 6 months with the selective aromatase inhibitor anastrozole. Initial plasma levels of estradiol (E2), testosterone (T), androstenedione, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) and gonadotropins were normal. DHEA-S showed a significant rise during treatment. T and androstenedione showed no significant change during treatment. E2 decreased with therapy, although to no statistically significant extent. The E2/T ratio decreased significantly during the treatment. Breast size decreased in 4 out of 5 patients, and in 1 of these 4 boys glandular breast tissue disappeared completely. The longer the duration of gynecomastia before anastrozole administration, the smaller was the reduction of breast size. Breast tenderness was resolved in all boys within 4 weeks. No adverse effects were recorded. Since the aim of medical treatment is the total disappearance of breast tissue, anastrozole, as previous aromatase inhibitors, is of limited effect. However, anastrozole seems to be of benefit for the treatment of tenderness in gynecomastia and for patients in whom surgery is particularly risky. However, as spontaneous disappearance of pubertal gynecomastia is common, further double-blinded, placebo-controlled trials are necessary before a definite conclusion can be drawn about the effectiveness and the side effects of this therapy.



personally, I've never taken any of the above, but the point is that pubertal gyno is treatable. Especially if your young. I read a study (it might be posted above) that said that 1 in 4 adult males have gyno.

It appears that effecacy goes something like this: anastrozole, ralox, tamox, danazol. The side effects seem to be in inverse order. Meaning the worse sides came from the least effective treatment options. It's also ironic that the most effective are the most expensive.

[Gixxer82]

Originally Posted by Travis

Thats actually what I am hinting at here.... Btw, 6-bromo is a real AI.

6bromo is a piece of shit, thank you very much.

[tillicollapse]

The only way to really reverse gyno after that long and this isn't even guaranteed is using letrozole. I used it for 3 month to get rid of a bit of gyno in my left nipple from puberty @ 2.5 mgs/day tapered up and down, followed my 30/30/20/10 nolva. Letrozole has a super long half life, like 30 days or something crazy like that, and it takes at least 2 weeks to get stable blood levels. It's REALLY effective at nuking all the estrogen in your body, so get ready for some pretty shitty side effects. I had to fight through some bouts of depression, lethargy, some weight loss, dry joints, absolutely no libido and a constantly pissed off state of mind. Plus, when your done it takes another month to flush out your system. Would I do it again? Fuck no. Now I run nolva during every cycle, not just keeping it "on hand". Am I glad I did it? I guess I sort of am. Kind of one of those "best things you'll never do again" type deals. So it's up to you man, hopefully this helps. Btw, I don't even want to know what happened to my cholesterol during that 3 months...

[brand77]

So what do you think caused it? I doubt it was the VERY mild 11-OXO or the few days of 6-Bromo. Was your Torem a 'research chemical'? I wonder if some contaminent in that was the problem. Just curious where did you get it?

[Cerberus]

Originally Posted by brand77

So what do you think caused it? I doubt it was the VERY mild 11-OXO or the few days of 6-Bromo. Was your Torem a 'research chemical'? I wonder if some contaminent in that was the problem. Just curious where did you get it?

c1

hard to say what caused it! Since it was ~ 2 months after my last havoc dosage, I thought it was some sort of estro rebound from the 11-oxo since I didn't start any pct after it right away. I started taking 6-bromo once I felt my nipples being sensitive, then I stopped, then started w/ the rest of my torem.

Who knows.