Bad cycle, where did I go wrong (w/ crunchy bones)?

[mw1]

Originally Posted by CygonX

I am on my 5th week of a bridge cycle with the following prohormones:


My last cycle I had great gains, but some undesirable side effects (i.e. libido died). This cycle (above) I've had only one side effect, and that's joint pain. which is bizarre, because I have never had joint pain from any anabolic use (oral or otherwise), and suddenly I get crunchy knees and elbows. I even picked up virtually every joint support supplement made, and I am currently taking Osteobolin-C by Applied Nutriceuticals (with Cissus Quadrangularis) that seems to help, but not enough.

I'm also taking BCAA, Creatine, MassFX, Primal Male, and Drive on a 4000 calorie a day diet high in protein. My specs: 35 years old, 6' 1" 222lbs, 13.5% body fat

So far, i have made some strength gains on this cycle, but almost no added mass, and very little reduced body fat. I may have added 4 pounds of muscle, if that.

The idea behind this cycle was to put on mass with the tren, it’s a dry compound, so I added the Phera to the stack as it’s rather wet, and then bridged into the epi that is dry thus still needing the Phera with it, yet it works fairly well as an anti estrogen so I wanted to run it through the end of the cycle, and adding the Prop into the stack towards the end as it does a fair job of fat burning when stacked with Epi, with hopes of maintaining some mass gain throughout. However, since the sides got bad I assumed it was the Epi and replaced it with the H-Drol.

Before anyone asks, I have Clomid, Ralox, and Tamoxifen lined up for PCT.

The question is, should I drop this cycle early and jump into PCT, or is there any way I can change out the prohormones to help the joint issues, and ride it out a little longer in hopes of actually getting some better gains? I am not particularly worried about suppressing my natural levels of test production as I plan to supplement forever and ever anyway :P

Im a little confused w/ this cycle a 2 week stint of Epi then 2 weeks of Hdrol (and prop for 2) will not get you NO WHERE! Each of those need to be run for 4 weeks.

[mw1]

Originally Posted by GotTest

Just as I thought...NOT enough time between cycles my man.

Cycle length + PCT length = Time off between cycles (Minimum)
6 week ON + 8 week PCT = 14 weeks OFF before next cycle.

I know it's tempting man...I could feel it in the gym today, thinking--"Man I wish I was ON!"
Patience will pay off.

Alot of people that i talk to that have problems in cycles, do so because theydid not wait long enough between cycles.

To theOP , I really feel you are setting yourself up to have future problems.

[CygonX]

I actually made a lot of progress in the last 2 weeks of the cycle, and getting off the dry stuff and moving to just Phera seems to have fixed the joint issues in about a week. Sadly, now my blood pressure is too high, and I am hoping that will level out once I get off the PH. I was at 120/65 before my 1st cycle, now I am 140/90.

So if I understand everyone's advice, I'd need to (for example) do a 6 week cycle, do 6 weeks PCT, and then stay off PH for at least 12 weeks. But couldn't you gain just as much muscle mass in the same 24 week period naturally, and without all the damn sides?

I have made great gains since before my 1st cycle, I am currently 228lbs at 14% bf, but I am rapidly losing interest in PH in general due to the sides and necessary cycling. and I understand why PCT is necessary, and I guess I understand why you need a "reset" period after using PH as well.

But is it worth the time and money once you figure all that into the equation?

It leaves me extremely tempted to just say to hell with it and get testosterone from a HRT doctor, and just do it perpetually for the rest of my life.

Someone really needs to write a "human readable" layman’s book on the science of endocrinology as it applies to athletes. All the best information I have found come from forums like this one, and even so, I made mistakes.