Bad cycle, where did I go wrong (w/ crunchy bones)?

[CygonX]

I am on my 5th week of a bridge cycle with the following prohormones:


My last cycle I had great gains, but some undesirable side effects (i.e. libido died). This cycle (above) I've had only one side effect, and that's joint pain. which is bizarre, because I have never had joint pain from any anabolic use (oral or otherwise), and suddenly I get crunchy knees and elbows. I even picked up virtually every joint support supplement made, and I am currently taking Osteobolin-C by Applied Nutriceuticals (with Cissus Quadrangularis) that seems to help, but not enough.

I'm also taking BCAA, Creatine, MassFX, Primal Male, and Drive on a 4000 calorie a day diet high in protein. My specs: 35 years old, 6' 1" 222lbs, 13.5% body fat

So far, i have made some strength gains on this cycle, but almost no added mass, and very little reduced body fat. I may have added 4 pounds of muscle, if that.

The idea behind this cycle was to put on mass with the tren, it’s a dry compound, so I added the Phera to the stack as it’s rather wet, and then bridged into the epi that is dry thus still needing the Phera with it, yet it works fairly well as an anti estrogen so I wanted to run it through the end of the cycle, and adding the Prop into the stack towards the end as it does a fair job of fat burning when stacked with Epi, with hopes of maintaining some mass gain throughout. However, since the sides got bad I assumed it was the Epi and replaced it with the H-Drol.

Before anyone asks, I have Clomid, Ralox, and Tamoxifen lined up for PCT.

The question is, should I drop this cycle early and jump into PCT, or is there any way I can change out the prohormones to help the joint issues, and ride it out a little longer in hopes of actually getting some better gains? I am not particularly worried about suppressing my natural levels of test production as I plan to supplement forever and ever anyway :P

[MASSIVE]

Originally Posted by CygonX

I am on my 5th week of a bridge cycle with the following prohormones:


My last cycle I had great gains, but some undesirable side effects (i.e. libido died). This cycle (above) I've had only one side effect, and that's joint pain. which is bizarre, because I have never had joint pain from any anabolic use (oral or otherwise), and suddenly I get crunchy knees and elbows. I even picked up virtually every joint support supplement made, and I am currently taking Osteobolin-C by Applied Nutriceuticals (with Cissus Quadrangularis) that seems to help, but not enough.

I'm also taking BCAA, Creatine, MassFX, Primal Male, and Drive on a 4000 calorie a day diet high in protein. My specs: 35 years old, 6' 1" 222lbs, 13.5% body fat

So far, i have made some strength gains on this cycle, but almost no added mass, and very little reduced body fat. I may have added 4 pounds of muscle, if that.

The idea behind this cycle was to put on mass with the tren, it’s a dry compound, so I added the Phera to the stack as it’s rather wet, and then bridged into the epi that is dry thus still needing the Phera with it, yet it works fairly well as an anti estrogen so I wanted to run it through the end of the cycle, and adding the Prop into the stack towards the end as it does a fair job of fat burning when stacked with Epi, with hopes of maintaining some mass gain throughout. However, since the sides got bad I assumed it was the Epi and replaced it with the H-Drol.

Before anyone asks, I have Clomid, Ralox, and Tamoxifen lined up for PCT.

The question is, should I drop this cycle early and jump into PCT, or is there any way I can change out the prohormones to help the joint issues, and ride it out a little longer in hopes of actually getting some better gains? I am not particularly worried about suppressing my natural levels of test production as I plan to supplement forever and ever anyway :P

For your joint pain try NOW Celadrin Cream and VPX Glucosa Cream The glucosa cream In the morning and at night/ the Celadrin cream after you workout Doing hdrol for two weeks is a waste IMO. Tren for size? where did you read that? Tell you the truth I would just jump into PCT if the sides are bad and your not making any gains. One more thing and I don't mean to be a dick but there is something wrong with your workouts or your diet if your not making gains on Phera

[CygonX]

I have not heard of Celadrin, but I will find it. I had forgotten I had VPX Glucosa, I will start using it.

I have a ton of Phera left, if you were going to stack something with it, what would go best with it for mass? I just started HGH as it is, so I think I can rely on that for improved fat loss.

I am really not in a big hurry to jump into PCT, as I'd really like to see some better gains. I did add almost 40 lbs to my flat bench press, but I have noticed no real mass gains. I think I am going to run this cycle long, then hit up the anti-aging doc for some TRT in the first few days of my PCT when my test levels are low. Prohormones have been real hit or miss for me.

[LBVT]

What an expensive cycle you're running, and the legal supps with the PHs to boot? Holy shit, costs an arm and a leg. Could have shot test for a fraction of what that cost!

[MASSIVE]

Originally Posted by CygonX

I have not heard of Celadrin, but I will find it. I had forgotten I had VPX Glucosa, I will start using it.

I have a ton of Phera left, if you were going to stack something with it, what would go best with it for mass? I just started HGH as it is, so I think I can rely on that for improved fat loss.

I am really not in a big hurry to jump into PCT, as I'd really like to see some better gains. I did add almost 40 lbs to my flat bench press, but I have noticed no real mass gains. I think I am going to run this cycle long, then hit up the anti-aging doc for some TRT in the first few days of my PCT when my test levels are low. Prohormones have been real hit or miss for me.

Here is a link for more info on NOW Celadrin
VitaminDeal.com - Celadrin - NOW Celadrin - Celadrin Cream - Celadrin Spray - Celadrin Lotion - Buy Cheap Celadrin
Now lets talk about stacking phera, is this the first time you have run it? Why not run it alone and increase the dose slowly. For example-
week 1-15mg
week2-30mg
week3-45mg
For me (6'"4, 240lbs) 45mg is the sweet spot Anymore and sides get bad You can run tren, form, or fura to try to stay dry but remember that dry PHs DRY you out(Joints hurt) And before I forget start the VPX Glucosa ASAP and your joints will thank me

[MASSIVE]

Originally Posted by LBVT

What an expensive cycle you're running, and the legal supps with the PHs to boot? Holy shit, costs an arm and a leg. Could have shot test for a fraction of what that cost!

I didnt notice on the other stuff, makes me more why your not making good gains

[CygonX]

Money isn't really an issue for me fortunately. The HGH is actually what I call expensive, the supplements/prohormones are fairly cheap in comparison. I have just avoided the injectables thus far just because the wife doesn't want me doing "real steroids" but now that we are both injecting HGH I think I can get away with it That, and I seriously hate dealing with doctors and appointments when it's a lot easier for me to click on the things I want, then they show up in my mail box in a few days.

I ran Phera this cycle, and a previous cycle, always stacked with something else. And that's really the question, what other Wet PH could I stack Phera with, that would get me the best results? I am considering dropping prop and all Dry PH from my cycle now. Or would you still advise running just Phera?

Also, I just started the HGH this week, so I am not expecting a lot of results until I have ramped up my dosage somewhere in the 5 to 7 week zone.

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by CygonX

My last cycle I had great gains, but some undesirable side effects (i.e. libido died).

Did you take enough time off between cycles?
Did you factor in the time on PCT?
This seems to be the biggest problem when I read guys not making gains on a "boat load" of PH stacks.

I'm also taking BCAA, Creatine, MassFX, Primal Male, and Drive on a 4000 calorie a day diet high in protein. My specs: 35 years old, 6' 1" 222lbs, 13.5% body fat

So far, i have made some strength gains on this cycle, but almost no added mass, and very little reduced body fat. I may have added 4 pounds of muscle, if that.

Our stats are about the same (I'm at 230lbs) and I know with the high cals/protein intake on that cycle...I would "blow up" BIGTIME.
With Phera it's gonna be wet and "puffy" but the size should definitely be there.
4lbs of solid muscle ain't bad for 4 weeks, but on Phera stack... very odd.
Again I'm thinking not enough layoff or training.

If you want mass you need to train HEAVY. I'm talking 4-6 rep range--HEAVY.
I don't care what PH I'm on...Cut or Bulk...I go Heavy and control body weight with Cals/carbs...and keep protein high.
It always works for me.

[CygonX]

I am doing 6-8 reps of heavy weight for all large muscle groups, and my strength has steadily increased. I am drinking 4 to 6 Myoplex Lite a day, plus Isopure Protein, and a lot of chicken. I did a 8 week PCT,m and then 2 weeks clean before starting the next cycle. I would have thought that was enough time.

Either way, I am dropping back to just the Phera 3 times per day until i can get an appointment setup with the HRT doc to show them some reduced testosterone levels. then after I get my script, I will probably PCT for 6-8 weeks, then jump back on test and deca for a long cycle. After that i should have all the size I want, so I should be able to concentrate on definition and my cardio.

I am a big heavy bastard doing MMA training, I need to get down to 205 lbs of solid muscle with some lungs.

[GotTest]

Originally Posted by CygonX

..I did a 8 week PCT,m and then 2 weeks clean before starting the next cycle. I would have thought that was enough time.

Just as I thought...NOT enough time between cycles my man.

Cycle length + PCT length = Time off between cycles (Minimum)
6 week ON + 8 week PCT = 14 weeks OFF before next cycle.

I know it's tempting man...I could feel it in the gym today, thinking--"Man I wish I was ON!"
Patience will pay off.