Torem

[mad dog]

Originally Posted by bassgod272

what is your reasoning for wanting to stay on such items for a year??

NO LOL i would/will not stay on it for a year i have just read about 30 trials where people have stayed on it for over a year with[clomid] no taper down and have gotten good results.

[Right Hook]

Originally Posted by bassgod272

Fertil Steril. 2007 Apr 3; : 17412336

The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

[My paper] Dimitrios Farmakiotis , Christos Farmakis , David Rousso , Anargyros Kourtis , Ilias Katsikis , Dimitrios Panidis

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether toremifene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), has a beneficiary effect on all three main sperm parameters. DESIGN: Prospective interventional clinical study. SETTING: University hospital. PATIENT(S): One-hundred subfertile men with idiopathic oligozospermia. INTERVENTION(S): Toremifene (60 mg daily) was administered to all men for 3 months. At baseline and at the end of each month, serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, inhibin B, and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were measured. At baseline and at the end, semen analysis was performed and sperm concentration, spermatozoal motility and normal sperm forms were determined. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Gonadotropin, testosterone, inhibin-B levels, total sperm count, sperm morphology and motility. RESULT(S): Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy. CONCLUSION(S): Toremifene administration for a period of 3 months in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia is associated with significant improvements of sperm count, motility, and morphology, mediated by increased gonadotropin secretion and possibly a direct beneficial effect of toremifene on the testes. The above findings are also indicative of a better testicular exocrine (improved sperm parameters) response to treatment in men whose partners achieved pregnancy compared with those who did not. Further randomized, placebo-controlled trials should be conducted to determine whether this particular selective estrogen receptor modulator can be useful as an initial approach in men with oligozoospermia.

this isn't a year, but 3 months is IMO a long time to be on a SERM.

^^^^ Doesnt indicate anything in regards to LH...

[Right Hook]

Torem can potentially be estrogenic (Which D_ alludes to in the following thread....):

Is torem as "liver friendly" as we assume?

I'm fairly sure I can find studies to support that as well.

[mad dog]

Originally Posted by Travis

Torem can potentially be estrogenic (Which D_ alludes to in the following thread....):

Is torem as "liver friendly" as we assume?

I'm fairly sure I can find studies to support that as well.

thanks for the post Travis i am still research torem but depends on you talk to tamox
and clomid can be estrogenic[to many conflicting studies out there]

[bassgod272]

Originally Posted by mad dog

thanks for the post Travis i am still research torem but depends on you talk to tamox
and clomid can be estrogenic[to many conflicting studies out there]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez. Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.P ubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles& dbfrom=pubmed


i found this to be pretty interesting. very small control group, but the results were intriguing.
here is another one. but this one only uses 5 men. in all 5 men, serum estro levels increased.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1002820?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.P ubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pu bmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&d bfrom=pubmed

[mad dog]

Originally Posted by bassgod272

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez. Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.P ubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles& dbfrom=pubmed


i found this to be pretty interesting. very small control group, but the results were intriguing.
here is another one. but this one only uses 5 men. in all 5 men, serum estro levels increased.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1002820?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.P ubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pu bmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&d bfrom=pubmed

Yes but to what extent was the estrogen increase and was it enough to ellicit a bad
response and could it be overrid with act=xt ? [just a thought/enough to cause gyno
prob not]

[bassgod272]

Originally Posted by mad dog

Yes but to what extent was the estrogen increase and was it enough to ellicit a bad
response and could it be overrid with act=xt ? [just a thought/enough to cause gyno
prob not]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez. Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.P ubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles& dbfrom=pubmed

well this one uses 36 men and 25mg clomid for a period of time. they reported no sides what so ever and it doesn't say the exact serum estro number, but it does state the T/E ratio and the beginning total test and estro levels.

[ItalianGuns]

So are we still deluding the powder in PEG 400? Or capping it? 20mg/ml ratio?

Thanks

[mad dog]

Originally Posted by bassgod272

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez. Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.P ubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles& dbfrom=pubmed

well this one uses 36 men and 25mg clomid for a period of time. they reported no sides what so ever and it doesn't say the exact serum estro number, but it does state the T/E ratio and the beginning total test and estro levels.

We will see BG might just use clomid/nolv both at low doses for PCT.

[bassgod272]

Originally Posted by mad dog

We will see BG might just use clomid/nolv both at low doses for PCT.

my rat just finished his phera/SD bridge cycle. 6 weeks long. he is using tamox at 40/40/40 for the first 3 days, then 20 for the remainder of the first week. 20mg for week 2, then 10mg for the last 2 weeks. While also usin DTH as his natty T booster. Those are some big tabs to get a rat to take!!! LOL. i believe too many bro's these days are abusing and misusing SERMS i their research. more is not better by any means. most studies i've seen use 20-40mg and there isn't much of a difference in results with the 2 doses. there is NO benefit when they go above 40mg. the patients just experience more sides. i know these are breast cancer studies, but still. depending on the cycle, nolva at 40/30/20/10 along with clomid at 50mg for 4 weeks would make a great PCT for a rather suppressive cycle IMO.