Green Tea - EGCG

[Spetsnaz]

I remember wanting to add it but read something about it being anti-androgenic.
One example cited was that the people in tea drink societies tend to have less/little body hair like in Asia...

[Hank Vangut]

Originally Posted by PhilonFire

alrighty please excuse my ignorance but literal hot green tea you get out of gorcery stores in the little tea bags?? If so when do you use it as like a 30 minute b4 work out suppliment type thing?

if you want to get the benefits of green tea you need a more potent dose than sipping tea. just buy pills or raw powder from a supp co. make sure you get 50% EGCG. it's really cheap this way.

[Hank Vangut]

Originally Posted by Spetsnaz

I remember wanting to add it but read something about it being anti-androgenic.
One example cited was that the people in tea drink societies tend to have less/little body hair like in Asia...

lol.

[hardcorefitness]

Originally Posted by Travis

hardcore howdo you dose the green tea with that stack?Posted via Mobile Device

I take 25 mg ephedra/ 200mg caffine and 630mg green tea. I just started dropping the caffine pre wo and adding in Smash instead and the ephedra/green tea/ smash gives me the most energy i've ever had at the gym. It seriously amazes me, I highly reccomend it.

[Spetsnaz]

1) Hiipakka RA, Zhang HZ, Dai W, Dai Q, Liao S. Structure-activity relationships for inhibition of human 5alpha-reductases by polyphenols. Biochem Pharmacol. 2002 Mar 15;63(6):1165-76.

Since some of these compounds [EGCG and others] are consumed as part of the normal diet or in supplements, they have the potential to inhibit 5 alpha-reductase activity, which may be useful for the prevention or treatment of androgen-dependent disorders. However, these compounds also may adversely affect male sexual differentiation.


2) Liao S. The medicinal action of androgens and green tea epigallocatechin gallate. Hong Kong Med J. 2001 Dec;7(4):369-74.

It is now clear that a specific green tea catechin, (-)epigallocatechin-3-gallate, can modulate the production and biological actions of androgens and other hormones.
Modulation of androgenic activity and administration of (-)epigallocatechin-3-gallate may be useful for the treatment of various hormone-related abnormalities, such as benign prostatic hyperplasia, baldness, and acne, as well as androgen-dependent and -independent prostate cancers.


3) Ren F, Zhang S, Mitchell SH, Butler R, Young CY. Tea polyphenols down-regulate the expression of the androgen receptor in LNCaP prostate cancer cells. Oncogene. 2000 Apr 6;19(15):1924-32.

In conclusion, we have described a new property of tea polyphenols that inhibits
androgen action by repressing the transcription of the androgen receptor gene


4) Liao S, Hiipakka RA. Selective inhibition of steroid 5 alpha-reductase isozymes by tea
epicatechin-3-gallate and epigallocatechin-3-gallate. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1995 Sep 25;214(3):833-8.

Epigallocatechin-3-gallate also inhibits accessory sex gland growth in the rat. These results suggest that certain tea gallates can regulate androgen action in target organs.

5) Kao YH, Hiipakka RA, Liao S Modulation of endocrine systems and food intake by green tea epigallocatechin gallate. Endocrinology. 2000 Mar;141(3):980-7.

The effect of EGCG on the weight of male accessory sexual organs was due to lowered circulating levels of testosterone. This conclusion is supported by the following observations. 1) Androgens such as TP and DHTP blocked the effect of EGCG on the weight of accessory sexual organs, including prostates. 2) EGCG did not reduce prostate weight in androgen-supplemented castrated Sprague Dawley rats (our unpublished observations). 3) EGCG-induced weight loss of prostate and other androgen-sensitive organs was accompanied by an EGCG-induced lowering of serum testosterone.


iB::Topic::Supplements
Green tea has compounds that block COMT. I stopped using as much green tea when I found that they were anti-androgenic. They not only block androgen at the receptor, thay also apear to downregulate androgen receptors.
Green tea is basically an anti-endocrine factor. It seems to reduce the effects of all steroid hormones. I don't mean to freak anybody out, it's just that the flavones (especially epigallocatechin gallate) are well known to reduce the actions of endogenous androgens (and estrogens) as well as even lowering testosterone levels themselves.

Anyway, my point is that, you may never see any significant effect of drinking green tea on muscle gains. Then again, we know that it is having an antagonistic effect, however small, in a direction oposite to what we want with respect to testosterone.

Cultures that consume a lot of green tea of also known to have fewer androgenic "manifestations" both normal (body hair, muscle mass, etc) as well as fewer pathologic manifestations (prostate problems, and other cancers associated with steroid hormones).

[Right Hook]

Originally Posted by Spetsnaz

1) Hiipakka RA, Zhang HZ, Dai W, Dai Q, Liao S. Structure-activity relationships for inhibition of human 5alpha-reductases by polyphenols. Biochem Pharmacol. 2002 Mar 15;63(6):1165-76.

Since some of these compounds [EGCG and others] are consumed as part of the normal diet or in supplements, they have the potential to inhibit 5 alpha-reductase activity, which may be useful for the prevention or treatment of androgen-dependent disorders. However, these compounds also may adversely affect male sexual differentiation.

You left out the following important part of this study. The below makes me think this study is relatively irrelevant to the effects of green tea EGCG when it comes to 5-alpha-reductase inhibition:

EGCG shows potent inhibition in cell-free but not in whole-cell assays of 5 alpha-reductase. Replacement of the gallate ester in EGCG with long-chain fatty acids produced potent 5 alpha-reductase inhibitors that were active in both cell-free and whole-cell assay systems.

I need to get into these other studies...

[Right Hook]

Study #2 above had findings that arent necessarily bad for males...no doses either unfortunately it looked like a general write up...

The medicinal action of androgens and green tea ep...[Hong Kong Med J. 2001] - PubMed Result

Study #3 above can be seen here:

Tea polyphenols down-regulate the expression of the androgen receptor in LNCaP prostate cancer cells

Some things I noticed from the full study:
1. Seemed to indicate EGCG did NOT inhibit cell growth when it was used alone without a natural androgen (DHT). Note, this was in cancer cells.
2. The PSA portion of the study again seemed positive for males. It doesnt necessarily indicate cell growth inhibition in muscle cells from what I know.

[Right Hook]

Studies 4 & 5 were on rats. And although #5 has me concerned its difficult to say without the full study.

Are you blade on the HST forums? I dont see any references to his comments really (unless thats what you were posting). What does Haycock think of Green Tea?

[Right Hook]

Also Dinoiii what are your thoughts on green tea supplementation?

[Spetsnaz]

Originally Posted by Travis

Studies 4 & 5 were on rats. And although #5 has me concerned its difficult to say without the full study.

Are you blade on the HST forums? I dont see any references to his comments really (unless thats what you were posting). What does Haycock think of Green Tea?

No. Blade is a huge guy and one of the pillars at HST while I am in the process of cutting to single digit BF before begin to bulk. The paras/quote after the studies listing is by Haycock. Blade organises the FAQ.

I thought of including EGCG as part of my supplement fat loss stack but remember this and decided against.