My first RPN Havoc cycle

[Djinn]

About 7 years ago I did an Andro cycle and got amazing gains with virtually no side effects (a tiny bit of acne and occasional uneven temper/libido). After I stopped cycling I didn't lose much in the way of strength or size immediately after but 5 years later I'm much smaller. At the time I was in college and didn't do it the smart way either (no prep, no pct etc.). Through the years I've not trained for gains mostly for definition and overall fitness. I'm about 40 pounds lighter than I was 5 years ago. I'm trying to get back to where I was now and have a long road to travel. I was looking at Havoc but am getting mixed messages from all the other boards about it's efficacy and also how to use it. I never took Nolva before and I never have had gyno or back pumps. With Havoc should I incorporate pct? Is Havoc a worthwhile supp? I heard it's being discontinued by RPN and also that it IS A STEROID. I will never take steroids again and consider myself lucky getting by free the first time around. Any cautionary words about Havoc or suggestions for the best way to use it effectively and safely?

28 yr old male
155lbs.
5'9
Workout 6 days a week (4 with weights 2 doing Jiu-Jitsu)

I read the threads btw I don't mean to repeat an already answered question but some of concerns are a bit different than what's been talked about.

Best,
Ali

[RisingAgainst]

Hey there Ali, welcome to LB...

First off, let me clarify that Havoc isn't a steroid, per se... it's a hormonal product though. You will need a PCT for it, and you will most likely enjoy the cycle thoroughly, as it is definitely a worthwhile supplement.

I would start with ~30mgs and work my way up to 40-50/day,,, feel it out, do what feels best with your body. You probably don't wanna go above 40-50. Are you somewhat versed with how to run a PCT yet?

[GeneGnome]

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

..

First off, let me clarify that Havoc isn't a steroid, per se... it's a hormonal product though.

Havoc is a steroid.

[BB12]

Originally Posted by GeneGnome

Havoc is a steroid.

I concur...

plus, you don't won't to start out with 30mgs a day. I'd start out with 20 (1 in the morning and 1 before workout or bed) for the first 4-5 days to see how you react to it then maybe go up to 30. At your weight, this should be enough to see some great gains. You want to ease your body into this....but continue to hit the weights hard.

[LLLLern]

I start it out like this


week 1
10/20/30/30/30/30/30
week 2- what ever 30-40

[Right Hook]

Havoc is good stuff.

QUOTE=Trauma1;1156463]

HAVOC Facts And Dosing Protocol

Maximum Strength/Mass Gains With Limited Side Effects:

-Dosing range: 30-50mg/day for 4 weeks


-Dose Schedule Recommendations: You should always have your dosing split evenly throughout the day to help maintain maximum blood level concentration of the compound. (I.E.)When 40mg/day is used, i recommend a 20mg dose about 45 mins - 1 hour pre-workout. Try to have one of your havoc doses be within that 45 min - 1 hour period pre-workout for enhanced training effect. Individual workout times will vary with each user, so set that up accordingly. As for the remaining two doses(10mg), evenly split them over the rest of the day around your pre-workout dose. Try to keep your dosing as close to 6-8 hours a part as possible.

The majority of user feedback indicates that 40mg/day is the best median dose for inducing maximum strength/size benefits while demonstrating fairly limited side effects. This does NOT include everyone however. Some users may have good/similar results with a slightly higher or lower dosing. Individual results may vary. These suggestions are based upon the majority of the user feedback that we've received.


Sample Havoc Cycles: Please note, these are JUST EXAMPLES of setting up a havoc cycle. Please utilize them accordingly to give yourself an overall idea on how to set it up. You will have to adjust the pattern to meet your own schedule and needs.


Havoc(20mg/day):

1st Dose(10mg): 8-10am
2nd Dose(10mg): 4-6pm

Havoc(30mg/day):

1st Dose(10mg): 8-10am OR 1st Dose(20mg): 8-10am(Pre-Workout Dose)
2nd Dose(10mg): 2-3pm 2nd Dose(10mg): 4-6pm
3rd Dose(10mg): 6-8pm

Havoc(40mg/day):

1st Dose(20mg): 8-10am(Pre-Workout Dose)
2nd Dose(10mg): 2-3pm
3rd Dose(10mg): 6-8pm

Havoc(50mg/day):

1st Dose(20mg): 8-10am(Pre-Workout Dose)
2nd Dose(20mg): 2-3pm
3rd Dose(10mg): 6-8pm

Supplements To Utilize While Taking Havoc:

-Taurine: Taurine is an amino sulfonic acid that is found in high levels in the skeletal and heart muscles of humans, as well as in white blood cells, and the central nervous system. Taurine aids the movement of potassium, sodium, calcium, and magnesium in and out of cells and thus helps generate nerve impulses. Muscle pumps/cramping occurs when there is a disruption of the movement of these electrolytes in and out of muscle cells. See below for a more detailed explanation of the pathway. Dosing: (5-6) grams/daily can be taken to help limit excessive muscle pumps/cramping that may occur. I recommend dosing both pre(3 grams)/post(3 grams)workout.

-Fluid/electrolyte intake: It is also very important that you keep your fluid and electrolyte(sodium,potassium,calcium,magnesium) intake very sufficient throughout the day. Fluid/electrolyte loss through training depletes interstitial fluids(basically the fluid that lies outside of the cells)which also attributes to muscle pump/cramping issues, and here's how:

Painful muscle pumps/cramps occur due to loss of the osmotically active particles(mainly NaCL or salt) outside the cell within the interstitial spaces. This causes a disturbance in the osmotic balance(pull) of fluid moving in and out of muscle cells. This then results in muscle cells excessively swelling(because they contain more osmotically active particles and fluid)and you develop very painful pumps. This process can also lead to problems with the calcium pump inside muscle cells. This will cause VERY painful cramps due to the muscle being locked in a contractive state. This is why adequate fluid and electrolye intake during training is very important to maintain this balance and prevent these issues.

-Gut Health: The probiotic contained within this product(Lactobacillus Casei Ke-99) can assist with enhanced nutrient absorbtion within the digestive tract by competetively excluding pathogenic bacteria that can prevent proper nutrient absorbtion. This in turn can equal out to better overall gains in the end. Gut Health also notes impressive immune boosting properties. Dosing is as follows: Take 2 capsules/daily for the first 5 days, followed by 1 capsule/daily there-after for maintenance. Please see the Gut Health Sticky for much more info.

-NOxidant:NOxidant is a potent blend of antioxidants specifically designed to counteract reactive nitrogen species - harmful free radicals produced from nitric oxide. NOxidant is best used in conjunction with nitric oxide enhancing supplements such as arginine and citrulline malate. Taken post-workout, NOxidant can protect the body from reactive nitrogen species to ensure an optimal anabolic environment and maximize your results. Dosing is as follows: On workout days, take 3 capsules post-workout or at bedtime. On off days, take 3 capsules before breakfast in the A.M. Please see the NOxidant Write-up for more detailed info.

-DHEA:(Dehydroepiandrosterone)DHEA is the precursor of androstenedione, which can undergo further conversion to produce the androgen testosterone and the estrogens estrone and estradiol. This can assist in maintaining libido while taking havoc. Due to havoc's properties of estrogen suppression, this can lead to suppressed libido in some users. DHEA at 100-200mg/day has shown in some user feedback to help limit this adverse effect and maintain an adequate libido.

-Branched Chain Amino Acids:(Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine) They make up about 1/3 of skeletal muscle in the human body. They play are very important role in protein synthesis and recovery. BCAA's assist in maintaining muscle mass as well as contributing to new growth through the muscle hypertrophy process. I recommend drinking BCAA's during your workout and into the postwork period. There are many effective BCAA supplements on the market. Choose the one that you like best.

-Liver(Hepatic)/Blood Pressure/Prostate/Cholesterol Support:(NAC: N-Acetyl Cysteine, Milk Thistle, Celery Seed Extract, Hawthorne Berry, Saw Palmetto, Red Yeast Rice, COQ10) These supplements help to minimize/limit possible adverse side effects in these areas. It's suggested to take your liver support supps. at least 3 hours a part from the Havoc itself. This helps ensure maximum effects from both substances.

-Joint Support(Tendon/Ligament):(Cissus Quadrangularis, Fish Oils:Omega-3 fatty acids)Many users utilize cissus while taking havoc to support/alleviate potential joint issues. Cissus assists in the repair and maintenance of your tendons and ligaments. This supplement can prove vital as your strength rapidly increases placing more stress/wear and tear on your joints overall. Fish Oils(Omega-3 in particular)can help to lubricate joints if taken in sufficient dosages. EFAs(Essential fatty acids) are needed for maintaining proper cell membrane structure--which allows the proper distribution of nutrients throughout your body. They are also needed for proper prostaglandin formation and maintenance, and most notably for the efficient metabolism of cholesterol.


-DCP: This RPN product can be a welcome addition to any Havoc cycle for many reasons. DCP contains PLCAR(Propionyl-L-Carnitine) which can assist in androgen receptor proliferation increasing the amount of actual receptors present on muscles cells thereby enhancing new muscle growth opportunity. DCP also contains TTA(Tetradecylthioacetic Acid)and Salvia Miltiorrhiza Extract. These substances are responsible for liberating fatty acids from adipocytes(Fat Cells) into the bloodstream to be used as fuel. The PLCAR is also responsible in assisting transport of fatty acids into the mitochondria(powerhouse of the cell)to be used as energy.

So in essence, DCP can assist you in your havoc cycle by assisting with more lean type gains, enhanced overall energy/endurance, and can assist in increased androgen receptor proliferation leading to better gains overall. :D For the full DCP write-up, please see the Sticky thread.

[/quote]

[Right Hook]

more...

Supplements To Utilize During A Havoc PCT:

-Creatine:(Monohydrate, Ethyl Ester, Gluconate) Creatine is an important supplement to utilize during the pct period for many reasons. Creatine acts by increasing ATP production within the body enabling for more noteable strength and endurance during workouts.

-Anti-Cortisol: These supplements assist you in helping to maintain your gains during the pct period. Cortisol suppression helps maintain size gains by limiting the release of the potent adrenal hormone cortisol. If this is left unadressed during your PCT, this can lead to a dreaded muscular destructive "catabolic state." This state is undesireable to the user as muscle is broken down and used for energy. This means some of the hard earned gains you've recently aquired are going to waste and being used as fuel for the body's daily processes. Using an anti-cortisol supplement helps to limit the amount of cortisol released overall. This assists in maintaining a more anabolic state further preserving your aquired gains.

-SERM(Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator):(Tamoxifen, Raloxifene, Clomiphene, Toremifene) A serm assists in blocking the effects of elevated estrogen(By binding with estrogen receptor sites preventing them from producing undesired estrogen related effects) while the body balances out its own endogenous hormones and effectively upregulates/restores its HPTA(Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis.)

-Natural Testosterone Booster: During your pct, your natural endogenous testosterone levels are suppressed(some users may be more-so than others.) These supplements help to kickstart your natural testosterone production and ultimately assist in restoring your HPTA(Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis.) This can be done by either stimulating the testes to produce more testosterone overall, or by inhibiting the aromatase enzyme(I.E, Aromatase Inhibitors) preventing estrogen conversion. This process tricks the body into producing more testosterone(which the body thinks will be used to convert into estrogen)to compensate for the unequal balance in estrogen/testosterone ratio.

-Branched Chain Amino Acids:(Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine) They make up about 1/3 of skeletal muscle in the human body. They play are very important role in protein synthesis as well as assisting in maintaining aquired muscle mass during the pct period. I recommend drinking BCAA's during your workout and into the postwork period. There are many effective BCAA supplements on the market. Choose the one that you like best.

-Liver(Hepatic)/Blood Pressure/Prostate/Cholesterol Support: (NAC: N-Acetyl Cysteine), Milk Thistle,Celery Seed Extract, Hawthorne Berry, Saw Palmetto, Red Yeast Rice, COQ10) These supplements help to minimize/limit possible adverse side effects in these areas.

-Gut Health: The probiotic contained within(Lactobacillus Casei Ke-99) can assist with enhanced nutrient absorbtion within the digestive tract by competetively excluding pathogenic bacteria that can prevent proper nutrient absorbtion. This in turn can equal out to better overall gains in the end. Gut Health also notes impressive immune boosting properties. Dosing is as follows: Take 2 capsules/daily for the first 5 days, followed by 1 capsule/daily there-after for maintenance. Please see the Gut Health Sticky for much more info.

Some Random Havoc Q&A:


Q: Do i take Havoc with or without food?

A: Havoc is a methylated compound. This basically means that it is able to survive the first pass effect(metabolism)of the liver(creating very high bioavailabilty)allowing for the compound to be released into systemic cirrculation still intact. Taking it with or without food will not significantly effect its absorbtion. It's a personal choice to take Havoc with or witout food.

Q: Sometimes when i take Havoc late in the day, i can't sleep at night. Why is that?

A: Havoc has been reported in some users to cause insomnia like issues. If that is the case, don't take havoc within 4 hours of bedtime. If that does not work, i'd cease taking havoc 6-8 hours before bedtime or try a sleep aid to assist with sleep induction.

Q: Do i need to use a SERM during my Havoc PCT(Post Cylce Therapy)?

A: YES, you NEED to use a serm....... period!! There seems to be a common misconception that havoc is a "mild" compound overall in regard to HPTA shutdown. Every person and every experience WILL be different. While the side effects are often very mild in themselves, that doesn't mean that your natural endogenous test level(HPTA) isn't being shut down. Please, treat a Havoc PCT seriously and use the proper ancillary supplements to ensure maximum recovery.

Q: What type of results can i expect from Havoc?

A: This is all very dependent upon what your overall goals are. Havoc can be used to deliver impressive strength and lean mass gains if your diet and training are on point. An 8-12 pound gain in size is not an uncommon feedback comment by many users.

Q: Can i stack other compounds with Havoc?

A: Yes, you can stack certain compounds with havoc. Havoc would stack BEST with a NON-methyl compound that is somewhat (wet) in nature. As long as the 2nd compound is of a NON-methyl nature, you can stack it with havoc. The (dry) effects of havoc stacked with a NON-methyl(wet)compound would work well together. Some good examples of currently available stackers would be: 3-AD(Anabolic Xtreme), Propadrol(EST), Furazadrol(Axis Labs).

I DON'T recommend that Havoc be stacked unless you are VERY EXPERIENCED in this regard. If you are a fist time user of Havoc, please RUN IT SOLO and don't stack it!

Q: What type of diet should i use with Havoc?

A: Again, this is very dependent upon what your overall goals are. Havoc respondes well to a standard bulking diet/training yielding some very impressive strength and size gains. Havoc can also be used to maintain size and strength while cutting or recomping. The key is your diet HAS to be in check and formulated for this type of cycle. Like anything in life, you will make it what it is.

Q: Can i drink alcohol while taking Havoc?

A: If you aren't responsible enough to abstain from drinking alcohol while taking Havoc, then you shouldn't be taking it in the first place. Alcohol will ABSOLUTELY add un-needed additional stress to your liver. To put it simply, DON'T DO IT!!

Q: Can i take Tylenol(Acetaminophen), Motrin(Ibuprofen), or Naprosyn(Naproxen Sodium) while on Havoc for pain?

A: In short, i would avoid tylenol at all costs. Acetaminophen (tylenol) is significantly metabolized hepatically(by the liver.) This WILL add major stress to the liver on top of the havoc compound. I DO NOT advise to its use while taking havoc.

Motrin and naprosen are NSAIDS(Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs.) They control pain by the inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis which contributes to the mechanism of our pain response. Nsaid use is also believed in theory to inhibit protein synthesis leading to hindered overall muscle gains. Nsaids are also metabolized hepatically(by the liver.) While their overall hepatic(liver)stress may not be AS significant as tylenol, it still adds a significant amount. Tylenol and Nsaids are STRONGLY advised to avoid while taking havoc.

Q: How long should a typical Havoc cycle be?

A: Havoc should be taken no longer than 4 weeks for a straight cycle. During that time frame, you will receive the maximum benefits/results from the compound. Some people may choose to pulse cycle havoc. A pulse cycle can be run for up to 6 weeks. Pulse cycle guidelines for havoc will be placed in this write-up shortly.

Q: Will havoc cause any androgenic related side effects such as hairloss, an enlarged prostate, or acne?

A: Based on overall user feedback, androgenic side effects from havoc have been mild to non-existant. That is not to say that some people may experience them, however the majority of user feedback indicates mild to no significant androgenic side effects. This is one of the great factors about the compound.

Q: I've started to lose my libido while on Havoc. Is there something i can take to counteract this adverse effect?

A: Yes, there is. In some individuals this adverse effect may occur, however the degree of actual occurance varies greatly among users. Even with that in mind, the majority of reviews/feedback indicate that libido remained unchanged or slightly elevated.

If libido suppression does occur, we recommend adding in some DHEA while on cycle. Sometimes the Havoc compound itself can suppress estrogen to the point where it effects libido. By adding in approx 100-200mg of DHEA, user feedback indicates this has resolved this issue in many.

Q: Do i need to take all the support supplements for Havoc that have been recommended in this write-up to have an effective cycle?

A: No. Many of the additional supplements such as Gut Health, NOxidant, and DCP are optional and were suggested because they CAN amplify your results(muscle gains) with a Havoc cycle. However, they are not needed to still have a very effective cycle. Your diet and training are as important as anything to making any cycle successful. I've listed above the potential benefits gained when adding in these other great RPN products to your cycle if you so choose.

[RisingAgainst]

Originally Posted by GeneGnome

Havoc is a steroid.

Lets not split hairs... it's hormonal, but that doesn't make it a steroid... no need to get into the "prohormone vs steroid" debate. It's not a steroid cuz it's not illegal... YA DIG?

Originally Posted by BB12

I concur...